Dealing with the Nerf Bat

[eldargal]

On this atleast I agree with jeske, we pay a huge amount for vehicles that can't do anything everyones elses vehicles can do for half the price, or less. The change to disembarkation pretty much neuters Banshees, Scorpions and Harlequins as well and makes Fire Dragons a lot trickier to use especially if they have some longrange artillery armour that can shoot from accross the board.

Rhinos may be fragile but at least they can still be used to provide ablative armour and mobile cover. Dark Eldar actually benefit quite a bit, their vehicles are no more fragile really but they can deal with enemy vehicles more effectively.

[Denzark]

EG are you talking game points or real life golden guineas???

Jeske I see where you are coming from, but remain to be convinced. Firstly GW don't think they make the best game, they think they make the best miniatures. They refer to themselves as a miniature company and just happen to have a ruleset to hang it on. This is why they don't right tight competitive rulesets and FAQ regularly.

Also I don't think they worry about the secondary market - I think their main effort is primary sales. I don't think they think new players might take the trouble to purchase a starter army from online second hand. I think they rely on mummy taking little timmy into the shop and getting everything - paints, dice, glue, models, terrain, all in one place. That is the attraction, the business model and how they are afloat and ostensibly not caring about the vets who only purchase exclusive or new must haves from GW - the rest they know where to go to the internet sales people to get what they need.

Who incidentally have already paid GW at profit so they win win - they might lose a vet's money to Wayland, but they have shifted product at a profit to themselves without store overheads.

[eldargal]

Game points, a wave serpent with minimum compulsory armament is 100pts, you can get nearly 3 rhinos for that. It's also really bad at doing its job, I'd take a more fragile raider any day. Most of it has to do with the age of the Eldar codex, i'm not 'crying' about it, but denying it's been hit hard by the change to 6th (a ruleset I'm very impressed with) would just be silly.

[Denzark]

I suppose the question for a vet (to get back OT loosely) is 'does this codex have an alternative build?' The caveat has to be 'that I am happy to play'. If the answer is no (a la you + footdar) then you have to look to another army.

If you don't have one its a good excuse, although I reckon anyone playing long enough to have worries about how edition changes affect their army, WILL almost certainly have more than one..

[eldargal]

I think that is the issue I have. I have no problem with adapting, I get cranky with people who can't but there is a difference between:

Howling Banshees are AP3 now, so are no use against terminators even when their numbers are thinned so I will have to use them differently.

and:

Howling Banshees can no longer be reliably delivered to enemy lines with enough killing capacity left intact to justify taking them in the first place, therefore they stay at home.

Various other units are hit by one or another rule in the same way. So it's not a matter of adapting, I can't adapt the lists I like to play and have any hope of having an entertaining game (I mean entertaining, not necessarily winning, that's just a bonus).

So I wait for either GW to faq things to make it better (giving assault ramps to Wave Serpents would go a long way to making mech viable again, even if it just let them disembark then assault rather than assault out of the vehicle) or a new book. The new book is supposed to be coming next year so it isn't a big deal.

[Renegade]

EG: Dont forget Eldar have FW options, 2 pages worth in fact, which is more than Necrons,DE or Nids. Please explain to me what armies pack enough Str 6 to seriously harass Falcons?

I will admit that Eldar suffer from an old codex, and some things are over priced, but Eldar have plenty of shooting themselves with fairly effective cheap weapons.

Jesk: If I am taking those 130pt models, which are not dedicated transports, then I am not taking others that are probably better at harassment and objective clearing. Eldar have far more tricks in the same slot that these take up. All Eldar vehicles are more survivable than Imperial vehicles with very few exceptions.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Game points, a wave serpent with minimum compulsory armament is 100pts, you can get nearly 3 rhinos for that. It's also really bad at doing its job, I'd take a more fragile raider any day. Most of it has to do with the age of the Eldar codex, i'm not 'crying' about it, but denying it's been hit hard by the change to 6th (a ruleset I'm very impressed with) would just be silly.

Wave Serpents are hardly 'the worst' of the transports, though. And in 4th, they were quite beefy. The one thing the really needed in 5th, was the ability to swap out the force field for a holo-field.

Other horrible transports, include the old Chimera (prior IG codex), which were painfully overcosted for what they did. Upwards of 80 to 90 points per transport. But the Trukk has got to be one of the most wretched. Even with the transport cost reduction we've seen since 3rd edition (Rhinos going from 50pts to 35), the Trukk has flat-lined at 30-35pts. It currently is transport worth about 25pts, in a 35+ point package, with a random extra perk when it explodes in fire. About the only thing worse in the Ork codex, is the Looted Wagon.

[xilton]

Tepogue - I would agree - except I cannot reconcile how doing this to vehicles will sell more - and they have been an expensive and good seller to date.

Hull points was definitely a bad idea as much for the game itself for badly balancing vehicles to selling, you have to admit, far less vehicles now. So for GW, it's a lose-lose situation on this one. You can't even say it's for the money since they'll sell less.

[gcsmith]

Tau still have the Overcosted Devilfish and Battlesuits.

[Yarlen Fireblade]

Hull points was definitely a bad idea as much for the game itself for badly balancing vehicles to selling, you have to admit, far less vehicles now. So for GW, it's a lose-lose situation on this one. You can't even say it's for the money since they'll sell less.

Depending on the army and setup, if you now have to buy loads of specialised infantry to fill in your obsolescent vehicle´s roles, you just have to buy more. They already won and they win again. Some people bought a lot of razorbacks, now they´ll probably buy some rhinos or a Land Raider.

I have six painted forgeworld wave serpents, fielded 3/4 at 2000 tournaments, along with a falcon and a nightspinner. Now the serpents are naturally out of the list for good, as are for example the banshees that went along and the nightspinner as I feel it´s no longer worth it. I´m just lucky that I have twice everything Eldar I´ll ever need, but not everyone is a collector, and that would be around 700 points of potential new purchases for a non collector player. They´ll have to buy to adapt. GW wins again.

Also, after around ten games, I start to feel strongly the game is orbiting towards 2500 points, as the reserve ruling and the diagonal and short table edge deployments, coupled with the security of not being assaulted by flanking units, allow you to fill the board and play everywhere with some sense of security.

A fully loaded Stormraven sets you down 700 points easily, and I can quickly fill my second FOC on Eldar or Deathwing just by spending on the extra troop unit required to maintain troops proportion and maybe 300 points on heavy or elite. It´s so very easy and reserves make deployment progressive, the board doesn´t feel overcrowded as I felt it was so many times in 5th, just because you couldn´t deploy a thing 18 inches from the short edges. Going 2500 with a new system clearly allowing it is just upping the ante and more money for GW unless you have your new units already. They win again