Fixing FW Eldar (Dark included)

[eldargal]

Firstly, this isn't about the issue with holofields and whatnot, there is a thread on the main Eldar superheavies already. But there are a lot of Eldar units that are generally considered quite underpowered, so I thought why not compile a list of things that might help.

Dark Eldar:

Tantalus: This often gets cited as an underpowered choice, personally I quite like it but I'd appreciate other opinions.

Raven: This has been buffed to have Vector Dancer in the last day or so, so with two dark lances and a heavy ten splinter cannon I actually think it's probably worth it, pity it is in Heavy Support though.

Reaper: Seems fine, storm vortex projector hits on 3+, has a one in three chance of stripping 3 hull points off a vehicle.

Eldar:

Nightwing: AV10, two bright lances and two shuriken cannons, two hull points. Slightly better with vector dancer, still incredibly fragile and has no chance at taking down an enemy flyer in one turn of shooting. In contrast other flyers will not struggle to destroy it. So much for Eldar air superiority.

My thoughts: Give its bright lances Heavy 2, 3 HP and titan holofields (5++ in addition to shrouded). This way at least it has a shot at taking down an enemy flyer in a turn of shooting before it gets blowed up by mased BS bolter fire.

Shadow Spectres: Up the base range by 6", drop the AP by 1 give Ghostlight lance or Melta or Heavy 2. Otherwise more expensive, more mobile Dark Reapers.

Firestorm: Hugely expensive for 12 S6 shots, drop price by 33%. Addition of hull points does help it somewhat.

Vampire Raider/Hunter: Urgh, where to begin? Give it AV11/11/10, drop its points a lot. Give the Hunter it Hover so its troops can actually disembark.

That's all the underpowered FW Eldar units I can think of at present. Opinions?

[DrWobbles]

Firestorm: Hugely expensive for 12 S6 shots, drop price by 33%. Addition of hull points does help it somewhat.

That would be lovely if the firestorm had twelve shots, but alas... it is only six.

Disagree about the nightwings ability to shoot down fliers. Firing on armor 10 (which shouldn't be too difficult with vector dancer) should be able to knock out 3 hull points with no problem. 5++ would be convienant though.

[eldargal]

Bah, you're right, I knew it was odd it didn't seem as terrible as I remembered it. Misread twin linked.

Well, against AV10 (Dakkajets, Razorwing, Ravens & a few others)

2 BS4 S8 bright lances: 1.32 hits/.99 glance-penetrating hits/-.66 HPs with 5+ jink save
6 BS4 S6 shuriken cannons: 4 hits/2 glance-penetrating hits/-1.33 HPs with 5+ jink save

Not bad, pity every flyer bar the Lightning, Barracuda, Hell blade and Attak jet has 3 HPS.

But compare to a vendetta with two heavy bolter sponsons, five points less than the Nightwing and lacks vector dancer but is going to get at least one auto-glance from the lascannons with the re-roll and will average two more glances from the heavy bolters. Edit: Oops, forgot saves for the Nightwing, it reduces the amount of HP lost quite a bit but still doesn't make the Nighting any better at killing flyers. It is AV12 as well so for a Nightwing it is:

2 BS4 S8 bright lances: 1.32 hits/.66 glance-penetrating hits/-.44HPs with 5+ jink save
6 BS4 S6 shuriken cannons: 4 hits/.66 glance-penetrating hits/-.44HPs with 5+ jink save.

So if a vendetta gets a shot with its weapons it will almost certainly destroy the nightwing (even if it just gets one sponson in LOS it has a fair chance of doing this. In contrast a Nightwing will probably only take one hull point from the vendetta.

Another thing to remember is that we can take one Nightwing per FA slot, the IG can take three.

The vendetta is a gunship transport, the Nightwing is an anti-air fighter. This is just wrong.

[Yarlen Fireblade]

Remember thanks to GW AV12 ex-skimmers policy, all the flyers that matter are AV12, not 10. Supposed best air superiority fighter is incapable of downing not so nimble, not made for dogfighting mere transports.

[eldargal]

Hm let's see:

Vendetta shooting at Nightwing:
3 BS3 S9 twin-linked lascannons:
1 hit+re-roll=1.66 hits/c1.4 glance-penetrating hits/-.46HP w 3+ jink save (5+ + Shrouded)
6 BS3 heavy bolter shots:
2 hits/1 glance-penetrating hit/-.33HP w 3+ jink save (5+ + Shrouded)

Total -.79HP per turn of shooting in response to -.88 from the Nightwing. So not quite as bad as I thought, but still a long way from great. We could have at most 3 Nightwings in our army, IG could have 9 Vendettas. It would take a Nightwing 3.4 turns to down a vendetta and the vendetta 2.5 turns to down a nightwing (of course vector dancer means the Nightwing has a higher chance of actually getting consecutive shots against the vendetta than vice versa)

[DrWobbles]

Bah, you're right, I knew it was odd it didn't seem as terrible as I remembered it. Misread twin linked.

Well, against AV10 (Dakkajets, Razorwing, Ravens & a few others)

2 BS4 S8 bright lances: 1.32 hits/.99 glance-penetrating hits/-.66 HPs with 5+ jink save
6 BS4 S6 shuriken cannons: 4 hits/2 glance-penetrating hits/-1.33 HPs with 5+ jink save

Not bad, pity every flyer bar the Lightning, Barracuda, Hell blade and Attak jet has 3 HPS.

But compare to a vendetta with two heavy bolter sponsons, five points less than the Nightwing and lacks vector dancer but is going to get at least one auto-glance from the lascannons with the re-roll and will average two more glances from the heavy bolters. Edit: Oops, forgot saves for the Nightwing, it reduces the amount of HP lost quite a bit but still doesn't make the Nighting any better at killing flyers. It is AV12 as well so for a Nightwing it is:

2 BS4 S8 bright lances: 1.32 hits/.66 glance-penetrating hits/-.44HPs with 5+ jink save
6 BS4 S6 shuriken cannons: 4 hits/.66 glance-penetrating hits/-.44HPs with 5+ jink save.

So if a vendetta gets a shot with its weapons it will almost certainly destroy the nightwing (even if it just gets one sponson in LOS it has a fair chance of doing this. In contrast a Nightwing will probably only take one hull point from the vendetta.

The 5+ jink save isn't automatic. If a flier were to take that save they would be forced to snapfire the next turn, greatly reducing the effect of a vendetta. also a flier may only fire 4 weapons so 3 twin-linked lascannons and 2 heavy bolter sponsons is unrealistic.
The nightwing, on the other hand, always gets the 5+ save and if it decides to jink will then benefit from a 3+ cover save (2+ if moving flat out). Also remember a fliers minimum movement is 18", this forces enemies to move up the board exposing its rear to a greater audience, vector dancer will be very handy for this reason.

And yes, i know a vendetta can go 'hover mode' and and still receive the jink save without the cons of being a flier, but at that point your nightwing should ignore the vendetta and let your war walkers have their way with it.

Your example is very 'stand and shoot' but that is simply not the way eldar work.


*edit* well looks like you already covered what i was trying to say

[eldargal]

It isn't an example at all, it is the average amount of damage they can do to each other. Obviously it is more complicated on the tabletop but the fact remains our best anti-air fighter struggles to deal with gunships, even without the jink save the Nightwing strips 1.32HPs on average which means two turns to take out a vendetta that is cheaper than it. It can still evade one turn, hover the next and unload its troops and unless you've got lucky you will have failed to destroy it before delivering its payload.

During that two turns it is also exposed to a lot more potential damage due to its vulnerability to S4+ weapons opposed to the vendettas S6+.

So, no the Nightwing isn't terrible. But it still isn't that good either.

[DrWobbles]

well i think every one can agree how important it is for a flier to come on the board after its enemy has arrived. in the case of the fragile nightwing coming on first, i would suggest going flat out to recieve the 2+ and skirt the enemy deplyment edge waiting for juicy targets to arrive.

[eldargal]

There is also the problem the squadron rule brings into it. Two vendettas, even if being tailed by an ideally positioned Nightwing, could potentially leapfrog to force the Nightwing to shoot at one or the other and not rack up enugh HPs on one to destroy it.

However, enough about the Nightwing.

[DrWobbles]

However, enough about the Nightwing.

Shenanigans.

I'll keep two in my Corsairs list.