Look Out Sir! confusion

[sinfreealex]

Does this keep going on for every save that must be taken on a Sgt or character or is it just once? Text says once.

[Aramel]

Yup, once per wound. So say your unit is wounded 5 times and your seargent is the closest model. If his save is the same as the rest of the unit, you would take a look out sir for each failed save. Once the character dies, excess wounds go to the next model and so on.

If his save is different, then you would make 5 look out sir rolls first. Then, for every failure you take an armour save and when he dies, you move on to the other models. Technically you should roll for each save one at a time so as to not abuse the ability to choose who gets the sucessfuly re-distributed "look out sir" wound. In a friendly game though you might as well roll them all to save time and just put excess wounds back into the pool when the character dies.

[Druid]

Could you please post where in the rulebook it says you need to make your lookout sir rolls first if you have different saves? Everything I've read on lookout sir and mixed armour says nothing about it. As far as I can tell, you always take your lookout sir rolls after you make any relevant saves.

[Nachodragon]

LOS is rolled for Wounds allocated. There is a pool of wounds assigned to your unit. Each wound is assigned to closest model. If 2+ model is in front and everyone else is 5+ you roll the wounds separately. First wound assigned to 2+ guy, you can LOS or roll for the wound.

The unsaved portion of the LOS rule is when everyone has same armor. It doesn't matter what is in the unit, as those unsaved wounds will remove a wound from a model in the unit. So, the first unsaved would would be assigned to front man. If character they can LOS and basically kill another model in the unit. This would go on until the character fails a LOS and he then eats the wound. This is to make it faster.

You could roll all the same armor save separately but this would cause the game to slow down considerably. But it would be the same thing. You assign to closest man, choose to LOS if character and if successful move the wound to another model, they would then take their save. BUT, since all the same, faster to roll at same time.

[Aramel]

On page 16 it says "when a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated." This suggests that you can make a LOS roll either before rolling saves or after. I just thought it made more sense to roll it before when the saves are different but I guess it's up to you.

[Aventine]

Could you please post where in the rulebook it says you need to make your lookout sir rolls first if you have different saves? Everything I've read on lookout sir and mixed armour says nothing about it. As far as I can tell, you always take your lookout sir rolls after you make any relevant saves.

You LO,S after allocation (pg 16, first sentence under LO,S). In a same save unit you allocate after saves, in a mixed save unit you allocate before saves (pg 15).

[xilton]

Sorry, you're wrong buddy. Multiple saves does not affect how look out sir is done.

There is nothing that mentions you must save before hand. Look out sir is applied exactly the same with the same saves or not.

The dilemma people have is the wording itself and nothing else. Does "or unsaved wound" mean after a failed save or before a save is made. Some people say it's after, others say it's before. I personally believe unsaved wound = failed save or it would be written like "before saves" , you can chose to look out sir. This also makes the rule more balanced and prevents the problem with 2W allocation units which people have a hard time still again like paladins. There is no other issue with this rule. Multiple save types does not change how look out sir is made and has absolutely nothing to do with it.

To be honest, mixed saves or not, your wound allocation is exactly the same. Only diff is that with all the same save, you're not stuck to roll 1 dice at a time because 1 or more dudes closest don't have the same save. That's it, nothing else to it. Rule as intended and NOT OP like some are trying to do and save their precious 2W models. And just to make sure, I play GK. I wish this would be different but it's not. People are trying to make this rule stronger then it is in reality. The rules are clear and mixed saves do not affect whatsoever look out sir in anyway no matter how you read it. You do not allocate the wounds to all the models if they are different. The closest model will be allocated "ALL" wounds one by one as long as he survives. For each wound that was not saved on IC or C, on a role of 2+/4+ (IC/C), you can put that wound on someone else and that someone else does not have a save of any type possible. That's it. Nothing more simpler then that. And that's how the rule is not matter how you try to read it. It is very clear. It is made to save characters. The one saving him, will get the full hit no saves.

[WickedGood]

Xilton....You make a lot of claims but have no proof. Here is my proof that you are wrong with words directly from the rulebook:

The look out sir rule says:
"When a wound(or unsaved wound) is ALLOCATED to one of your characters,........he's allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt." ( Pg 16 main rule book)

Now read how a wound is ALLOCATED:
For units with the exact same armor save:
1. " Take Saving Throws" (Pg 15 main rule book)
2. "ALLOCATE unsaved wounds and remove casualties" (Pg 15 main rule book)

So in cases where all the armor saves are identical you allocate after saves have been made. At this point a character can try to LO,S.

For units with MIXED saves (Draigo Paladins, Archon Shadow Fields, etc)
1. "ALLOCATE wounds" (Pg 15 main rule book)
2. Take saves & Remove Casualties (Pg 15 main rule book)

So in the case of mixed saves you MUST ALLOCATE prior to taking the save.

This seems very clear to me. There is still some room for abuse as it appears fuzzy that multiple characters in a character unit can take the LO,S wound. That said the rule book ABSOLUTELY has two different procedures for allocating wounds and those procedures are REQUIRED (not suggested) according to page 15 "If the target unit contains several different saving throws, you'll need to follow this process instead of the one presented above. This method is a little slower, but ensures every model gets full benefit of whatever save it is entitled to."

[DarkLink]

Right. Look Out Sir basically boils down to this:

When a wound is allocated to a character, you can pass the wound off to another model in the unit on a 4+ (or 2+ for ICs).

That's pretty much the entirety of the rule, even if they do a clumsy job of explaining it in the rulebook.

So you have to ask, when do you allocate wounds? If you look at the rules for that, as WickedGood mentioned, it depends on if you have mixed saves or not. Thus, even though it isn't directly spelled out in the LOS rule, when LOS occurs at different times under different circumstances.

[Aventine]

To be honest, mixed saves or not, your wound allocation is exactly the same. Only diff is that with all the same save, you're not stuck to roll 1 dice at a time because 1 or more dudes closest don't have the same save. That's it, nothing else to it. Rule as intended and NOT OP like some are trying to do and save their precious 2W models. And just to make sure, I play GK. I wish this would be different but it's not. People are trying to make this rule stronger then it is in reality. The rules are clear and mixed saves do not affect whatsoever look out sir in anyway no matter how you read it. You do not allocate the wounds to all the models if they are different. The closest model will be allocated "ALL" wounds one by one as long as he survives. For each wound that was not saved on IC or C, on a role of 2+/4+ (IC/C), you can put that wound on someone else and that someone else does not have a save of any type possible. That's it. Nothing more simpler then that. And that's how the rule is not matter how you try to read it. It is very clear. It is made to save characters. The one saving him, will get the full hit no saves.

As has been said, it is based off allocation, which is affected by whether you have a mixed save unit or not.

I think it is funny you are trying to say the correct way is more powerful, because if it were like you said (always after saves) it would be much more powerful. If that were the case you (as a GK player) could put Draigo at the front of your unit of power-armoured troops and then he could soak all incoming firepower with his 2+/3++, then if he happened to fail one, it would just kill a shmuck on a successful LO,S, essentially giving the entire unit the benefit of his Terminator armour. That is not how it works!