Power weapon swaps mid tourney

[Morbid]

Changing an axe for a sword is not chaging your list (unless you want to show me where the entries for a Power "sword", "axe" ect are). Whether you like it or not, it's not a change on the list. Chaos Icons are not the same entry, there is a difference, I.E. A mark of Khorne is a sparate entry from a mark of nurgle, even if they are the same points they are separate entries. Power WEAPONS are one single entry that is dependent on WYSIWYG.

also **** you if I want to change my whole list around between games I will, unless i'm at a tournament.

We are talking about tourneys...did you seriously think we were having a rule discussion about weather or not you can switch models in between a friendly game? Okay.

Next name me a tourney that you are allowed to switch out models in any way between games. Every tourney I have been to in 4th and 5th, you were not allowed to modify or switch anything out for any reason unless it was a copy of the exact same model and only if the previous one was broken during a game. Some tourneys you needed to bring super glue to just in case.

Seems to me you have never played in a tourney. However feel free to enlighten me. Your posts have not added to the argument because you have none, and clearly didn't even know what we were talking about to begin with.

[Charistoph]

Agreed.

Fists and Hammers are not generic power weapons. You cannot exchange them or swap them out, mid-tournament or not.

Targets, not subjects, especially when only one version will slice TDA.

Grey Knight force weapons are Unusual Force Weapons. Why does no one bother to read the Unusual Weapon rules?

Because their rules are already defined, maybe.

[DarkLink]

Darklink, Charistoph was saying swapping out weapons when facing terminators as they will often have low I themselves, so taking axes won't be a great disadvantage, not swapping them on the terminators themselves.

Ah... I was like WTF?

[gendoikari87]

Next name me a tourney that you are allowed to switch out models in any way between games..

yes I play in plenty of tournaments and the simple fact is that it hasn't come up, ever, it's never been a rule, except that you had to have the same LIST, the LIST and the models are wholly separate entities save for what's on the list having to be represented on the models (and yes when you choose power WEAPON that can mean axe or sword) and things got broken all the time and were switched out. I myself switched out models based on whether my opponent was willing to allow me to play with my conversions or would have preferred the originals. NOW with the rule being reflected in model, and the list being unchanged with different modeling, you can have the same list with different models. The rules are still the same so models can be interchanged, because it's never been a problem, but now with these new WYSIWYG rules, they need to change that, but it hasn't been yet. maybe your area had a rule that you had to use the same models, but I call bull on that as it was never a problem until now.

So I'm sorry but you have no argument here save for the every easy solution of making it a rule that you have to keep models the same. But until now, that hasn't been a problem and has never been a tournament rule.

"You cannot change your models between games. You submit a list for a tourney and you play that list."

Models =/= List What's in the list must be represented by the models but the models are not the list. Unless this is one of YOUR local tournament rules, which I highly doubt as it hasn't been a problem until now. but it is not the case everywhere, or at least is not at 'ard boyz unless both of my local shops run things wrong.

[Charistoph]

Chill. Not everyone plays the same tournaments here. It may be technically legal, in that the BRB doesn't state such, but then, the BRB doesn't say a blessed thing about how tournaments are to be run, either. I guess they assumed their customers to be mature and not total a**hats and d***wads. There are no rules in the BRB against that, either, but that doesn't mean one should.

After all, it is just a game, and a game that requires players to be friendly in order to be successful. And I don't know about you all, but I don't consider a**hats or d***wads to be particularly friendly.

So you do what you want, we can't stop you, but just realize that someone who pulls this kind of crap won't be playing against anyone but themselves and the desperate.

[Cherub]

I seem to remember this happening at a couple of years ago at a tourny at warhammer world. They player was swapping weapons out between games and got caught thanks to people taking pictures of the games and comparing notes. Seems to me he was kicked out of the tournament and banned from warhammer world tournies.

You can try to rationalize it all you want but its cheating, and we all know what happens to cheaters....

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIHcXNnSkZA[/url]

[Denzark]

The OP asks for reasons why this is wrong. I'm sure I pointed out a squillion pages ago that technically this is legal.

Maybe he wants to know why people dislike the idea. Its simple. MTG and Warmahordes have near indestructible combinations of forces that can leave an opponents force with absolutely no chance of winning. Therefore they need some variation available at any moment of a tournament to make it worthwhile.

Whereas in 40K - OK the floor will surely debate - but the prevalence of instawins is less. There is a point at which you must sh*t or get off the pot. Some armies are so forgiving to (weaker, less experienced, crapper whatever) players because of their flexibility. Ie most marines. However other armies (mostly xenos) have one thing they do really well.

If you drew against an army that will wipe yours off the table you just man up and get on with it. But if you rock up and have a little advantage (Hi I'm a spikey emo elf player with have high initiative) and then your marine opponent changed his force to mitigate this, you may consider this unfair.

No one has ever suggested letting units change out weapons as a good thing before mid-tourney (ah, tyranids. Yes these scouts now have sniper rifles. Ah, mech with few MEQ troops. These plasmas are now meltas). So just becuase the book has a loop hole now doesn't amke it morally more acceptable.

The only reason I can think of why anyone would do this is to advantage themselves. I find as apparently so do many others, a particularly lame thing to do. I would prefer people to walk through the door with a list and for better or worse thats what you play. If its cack, you learn for next time. This ain't MTG or Warmahordes and all that sideboarding crap is a crutch.

Any clearer for you?

[Houghten]

Many Imperial codifereces allow a model to swap one of its weapons for "a combi-melta, -flamer or plasma, x pts."

If I write "combi-melta, -flamer or -plasma" on my list and swap them out between games, is that legal?

No?

Then why would it be legal for me to write "power weapon" on my list and swap between a sword and axe?

[Kawauso]

Many Imperial codifereces allow a model to swap one of its weapons for "a combi-melta, -flamer or plasma, x pts."

If I write "combi-melta, -flamer or -plasma" on my list and swap them out between games, is that legal?

No?

Then why would it be legal for me to write "power weapon" on my list and swap between a sword and axe?

Because currently those combi-weapons are all separate choices.

Currently power weapons, however, are only 'power weapons', and you're supposed to determine what -kind- they are using WYSIWYG.

[gendoikari87]

I guess they assumed their customers to be mature and not total a**hats and d***wads. .

Never, EVER, make that assumption about the human race. And like I said it's a problem that arose because of the unprecedented use of tying a rule to WYSIWYG, and it's one that is going to be easy to fix if it hasn't been already. I think tying a rule to WYSIWYG, was a bad move but they did it, and it's easily rectified by adding a single simple rule to your tournaments.

Because currently those combi-weapons are all separate choices.

Currently power weapons, however, are only 'power weapons', and you're supposed to determine what -kind- they are using WYSIWYG.

This. Just because they are on the same line, under the same cost, does not mean they are the same entry.