Doing my head in....

[40kGamer]

I was mostly replying to 40KGamer's post, Haighus.

Mate I grew up poor with uneducated parents as well and went to work at 16 to help provide for the family. The people I find the most distasteful are those who think the world owes them something and guess what? Entitlement mentality has nothing to do with wealth.

[grimmas]

Willingness to provide for ones children and finances are not entirely linked. Also being unable/unwilling to provide for your children is pretty much the definition of being a bad parent. Of course providing for your children does not mean buying stuff for them. Where stupid parents doesn't necesarily mean stupid children, bad parents will in most cases mean bad children, without sone form of intervention.

As a bit of an aside if you have IVF on the NHS, there are some limited physical and social vetting and you are required to sign a number of declarations to you're intentions to provide care and the like, a far call from a licence but certainly more than nothing. NHS IVF is also only provide for childless couples and for one child only. (No prizes for guessing how I know this)

And finally when assuming legal responsibility of a child in the UK (usually upon registering the birth) you do actually sign a legally binding document listing your responsibilities to the care of that child.

[CoffeeGrunt]

So if someone loses their job and can no longer financially provide, do we seize their children until further notice? Clearly it's them being, "a bad parent," if the factory closed down and there's not much work in town...

[grimmas]

So if someone loses their job and can no longer financially provide, do we seize their children until further notice? Clearly it's them being, "a bad parent," if the factory closed down and there's not much work in town...

I did say providing doesn't mean just buying stuff for children.

And that's why we have a benefits system to help people out when they fall on hard times so they can get back on their feet. If you lose your job and you have children you need to find another one its your responsibility no one else's, just like providing the correct emotional support and direction is also your responsibility as is teaching them discipline.

The state, family members and paid professional can help, but if you're the parent it's your responsibility to provide.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Use a less vague term than, "provide," then. What is, "providing?" Do you mean socially, nutritionally, intellectually, academically?

The argument in this thread was that the taxpayer is paying too much for people looking after their kids though, so they were looking at reducing that, (by reducing the amount of people who are allowed children.) I also don't think you understand how long these hard times can last for some people.

If there simply isn't the work available - which is common - are they a bad parent?

[40kGamer]

Use a less vague term than, "provide," then. What is, "providing?" Do you mean socially, nutritionally, intellectually, academically?

The argument in this thread was that the taxpayer is paying too much for people looking after their kids though, so they were looking at reducing that, (by reducing the amount of people who are allowed children.) I also don't think you understand how long these hard times can last for some people.

If there simply isn't the work available - which is common - are they a bad parent?

In the US we now have families that have rode the public system for 3 generations which is literally insane. Welfare and state aid are their lifestyle. And what really irritates me is the attitude that 'hey there's no work available so we'll just set here and do nothing for the rest of our lives while the rest of you fools pay for us and our kids'. There was no work where I grew up... the economy crashed, machines replaced people and poverty ran rampant... that didn't mean I should set on the farm, take handouts and complain that there was no work. Instead I picked a career that has options, trained for it and then moved to where I would have a good job. So it's hard for me to have much empathy for those who set at home and want freebies while I'm living in a city I don't like and doing a job I detest... but that's responsibility for you... doing what you have to instead of what you want to.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Are you providing for children right now? Hard to travel when you've got a family, it can affect your job prospects, especially as far as overtime and the like.

As far as generations of welfare, we have that here in Britain, though depending on where you ask it's a far smaller, cheaper problem than what it's made out to be. I imagine America is the same, especially with that debacle [URL="http://secondnexus.com/social-commentary-and-trends/baltimores-delinquent-water-bills-tap-wellspring-concern/?ts_pid=2&ts_pid=2"]going down in Baltimore[/URL] right now where they're threatening to turn peoples' water off, (in Summer, with water being a basic Human Right.)

There you have people getting their water shut off without trial or warning, and thus being unable to provide a basic human need to their children. Despite $15M of the debt for the water company coming from businesses, they're hurting the average person and punishing them.

Your stupid breeding law would do the same.

[grimmas]

Provide is perfectly fine term and I've defined it perfectly well.

That isn't the gist of the thread that's what you are trying interpret it as so you can push your right on status.

I've already answered your question about parenting stop asking again trying to get a different one.

Oh and not being able to find work isn't common unemployment is at one its lowest ever levels.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Provide is perfectly fine term and I've defined it perfectly well.

Actually no, you didn't. All you said on the matter is that, "willingness to provide for ones children and finances are not entirely linked. Also being unable/unwilling to provide for your children is pretty much the definition of being a bad parent. Of course providing for your children does not mean buying stuff for them. Where stupid parents doesn't necesarily mean stupid children, bad parents will in most cases mean bad children, without sone form of intervention."

So willingness =/= finances, if you're unable/unwilling you're a bad parent, but providing =/= buying stuff. Also bad parents == bad children.

You didn't actually put forward a definition in that, merely noted some things that are not defined by, "provide."

The gist of the thread was that we are spending too much on welfare, and thus the discussion moved to issues of preventing overpopulation and overbreeding. This then moved to premises that would primarily target the poor or less fortunate, and that's where I felt the problem started.

Oh and not being able to find work isn't common unemployment is at one its lowest ever levels.

I'm not sure if you're naive or ignorant, but unemployment figures are being fiddled by government schemes, (such as the scheme where Jobseekers are forced to do unpaid labour in order to continue receiving money, thus counting as "employed" despite no long-term career from it, or any hope of even getting paid.

Also, many people don't have a full education, and can't afford one as government subsidies only cover the young for such things. Thus, the cost of reeducation is pretty tough to bear on top of the currently high cost of running a household, especially if you have kids.

Sometimes life takes a steaming crap on you outta nowhere. Just ask the hundreds of thousands of Oil and Gas workers who've lost jobs in the last six months because the oil prices tanked. They're not going to get other O&G work because no-one is hiring. Are they bad parents?

In a nutshell, I'm just asking for a little bloody empathy in your proposals, really.

[40kGamer]

Are you providing for children right now? Hard to travel when you've got a family, it can affect your job prospects, especially as far as overtime and the like.

I understand that it can be a disaster for a family to be settled and have the world drop out from under them. That is what the social programs are supposed to be there for. The US has programs to provide temporary cash, food, utilities and housing... of course a lot of these are tied up by people who shouldn't need them making it harder for those they are intended to help to access them.

But what about all these people who pop a baby by age 18? Now they've got a family to provide for and they have zero education and limited opportunities from a self made disaster.

As far as generations of welfare, we have that here in Britain, though depending on where you ask it's a far smaller, cheaper problem than what it's made out to be. I imagine America is the same, especially with that debacle [URL="http://secondnexus.com/social-commentary-and-trends/baltimores-delinquent-water-bills-tap-wellspring-concern/?ts_pid=2&ts_pid=2"]going down in Baltimore[/URL] right now where they're threatening to turn peoples' water off, (in Summer, with water being a basic Human Right.)

Sure... it looks like a small problem and compared to Corporate Welfare and the abuse the wealthy layer onto the system it is small potatoes. But here the statistics mean absolutely nothing. I grew up in the state of WV, beautiful land, laid back lifestyle and almost zero jobs or opportunity. Welfare there is a way of life. Hell I have family members that are riding the second generation of hand outs and I can promise you they are just lazy *******s. The beauty of insider info.

So back to the stats. There was a huge program of Welfare reform when I was working to pay my way through college and the politicians claimed a big victory in limiting the program and then another victory as the stats of those on welfare dropped. Guess what? It was all lies... Smoke and mirrors, bait and switch, whatever you want to call it. Noone came off welfare. Noone went to work. Instead the government moved all these useless tits from Welfare to Disability. You see Disability comes from the same program as Social Security... this is the program that is 'supposed' to provide supplemental retirement for those that actually work for a living. Now those who do nothing and provide nothing are hopelessly intermingled and safely hidden away with the working class... and not surprisingly the social program for the working class is going broke. Guess that happens when you have a big section of people drawing out funds when they contributed nothing.

There you have people getting their water shut off without trial or warning, and thus being unable to provide a basic human need to their children. Despite $15M of the debt for the water company coming from businesses, they're hurting the average person and punishing them.

That is terrible but what do you do short of taking ownership of the kids away from the parents. If parents want to spend their $ on drugs and booze instead of their kids there's not much you can do about it.

Your stupid breeding law would do the same.

Of course it's stupid... the law is stupid and laced with holes that allow those wealthy enough to abuse the hell out of it. But if people weren't incapable of managing themselves we wouldn't need laws at all. Should we really have to tell people hey you can't steal or murder your mates? Or that slavery is bad and holding women hostage for sex isn't allowed? It's really people that are stupid.