Serious Rules Debate the FAQ Does Not Address

[AirHorse]

What it actually says is this:

"The command points counter is revealed in the status phase at the end of the turn. The Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter, and if he has used more command points than he had available he immediately loses the game."

Missing out a very important first sentence of the paragraph. If it didnt say this and just said the second sentence then I would be in total agreement with the people who claim this as cheating.

Also the arguement that you "wouldnt like to lose like this" is completely irrelevant. Whether you, me or anyone else likes to lose like this isnt a basis for arguing the legality of someones actions. No one here is trying to cheat, infact the arguement that at the very end of the game space marines can make a desperate last ditch push is quite in spirit with the rules so please drop this whole "its cheating" arguement and get back to a discussion about interpretation of the rules.

[Gotthammer]

I guess I'm fortunate enough to have a great group of (fairly) well adjusted adults who are looking for a fun, well played, competetive, game that everyone can enjoy.
If your mind immediately jumps to "cheating" and "getting away with [stuff]", I wonder if you need more trustworthy friends?

This seems like a real emotional subject for you and weather you're not fully reading what I'm typing or I'm just not putting it in a way you're able to understand, it doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that the OP knows that there are other people that play the game the way he/she does.
...and really, if you DON"T play that way, it's not that big of a deal. I think you're missing out on an aspect of the game that portrays the iconic resolve of the Space Marines, but I'm not going to accuse you of cheating.

Firstly, I apologise if I have been overly aggresive towards you, it was not intended. Secondly I do agree that it is fine if both parties agree to it beforehand or is a special rule of some sort. I don't like the inference of the OP that it can be used to get one over the Genestealers however - that's what I'm not cool with: the idea of using the loophole of instant victory to avoid the checking of the counter to sneak a victory.

To re-itterate, the original question was "Can I expending more command points than I drew to make this happen? ". I still say no as, well, it's more points than you have available. I also still say that if you were able to use six whenever you felt like it you'd have nothing but sixes on the counters.

It is lying - [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie?db=luna"]a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood[/URL] - and I call lying about a supposedly random element in a game to make it turn to your favour cheating. Be it a CP or a die roll, that's not cool in my book.

For an example, I was playing Rescue as Marines - my guy with the CAT was seven squares from safety, so I needed to draw 3CPs or more to win (one of the great Space Hulk maxims is "always plan as if you'll get 1CP"). I drew a 2. I lost, but could have easily used an extra point I did not get to win. But that victory would have been hollow had I done that. It was a "well played, competetive, game that everyone enjoyed", even for me though I lost.

My "mind immediately jumps to "cheating" and "getting away with [stuff]" because I would feel cheated if, when playing as Genestealers, my opponent used more CPs than were drawn. Given the CP token can be replicated with a D6 roll, lying about what is drawn is to me the same as lying about die rolls. I trust most people - I won't check a die roll I can't see 99% of the time and believe my opponents call of it - but if I found out later they had lied about it I'd be pissed, especially if it was the game winning roll.

[AirHorse]

We understand what you are saying gotthammer, but you are completely missing the point. This is NOT the same as lying about a dice roll or something similar. That is a generic example which although similar isnt actually relevant as dice rolls arent checked in a seperate phase of the game, and dont have a specific section of the rules written about how to deal with it at the point where they are checked.

Like I said before, if they had simply said you cant use more points than you have it would have been a non-issue, but they didnt. More to the point, why even bother to explain you get a random amount of points then have a seperate blurb about how if at the point its checked you cant have used more than allocated? If there werent expections it would never have even been mentioned. The fact that they say it as they did, mentioning a specific point at which it should be checked is indication that there ARE expections to the simple case of "you get this many points, no more".

[Gotthammer]

But my opinion is that the exception you refer to is not there in the rules, merely there through one reading of them - with which I disagree (and never the twain shall meet it appears ).

I have to go to the post office on Monday, so I think I'll write Jervis a letter and see what he has to say about proving me right... I mean ruling on the situation

[oni]

Holy crap... you guys really ran with this. I've been in FL for the past week so I didn't get to chime in.

Firstly, all this talk about cheating and trying to get away with things doesn't do any good. I don't think anyone here is deliberately trying to deceive anyone else, especially not me... the original poster.



A General Summation: The game mechanic is there as a safe guard for the Genestealer player. It's to prevent the Space Marine player from "accidentally" spending to many CP's and gaining an upper hand through out the game. Imagine the game without the mechanic. There wouldn't be anything to stop the Space Marine player from using more CP's than drawn; and once revealed, no repercussion. Maybe an "Oh, I'm sorry, I'll try not to let it happen again." The space marine player not being "allowed" to spend more CP's then what was drawn has no merit without a rule to back it up with a repercussion.

Winning & The Mission Status Phase: Some believe that once the victory condition is met and a victor determined that the game instantly ends. Not true, the mission status phase will check victory conditions, but specifically says "as noted in the mission rules". So unless the mission rules say differently the rest of the mission status phase will be carried out, possibly negating the victory if to many CP's were spent. This is the case for all of the missions with one exception... Mission 1.

Mission 1: Mission one explicitly says [RAW] that once the victory condition is met the game ends immediatly. Do not finish your turn, do not go into the Genestealers turn, do not bother with the mission status phase, do not pass go, do not collect $200... GAME OVER! This is where the issue arises. Since the game ends immediately, CP's will not be checked and therefore have no baring on taking the win away. The title says it all... Suicide Mission, it's one last desperate attempt to secure the win OR you end up screwing yourself (committing suicide in essence) by spending to many CP's and loosing. I think for Mission 1 only, spending more CP's (up to 6) is perfectly within the rules and the spirit of the game.



I hope this helps some see my point of view rather using that ugly word "cheating".

[Alvena]

I want to thanks Oni and Gotthammer who has summerize/explained very well my point of view i wanted to defend.

Sorry for being one of the first saying the ugly word, English is still a foreign language, and it has been really helpfull to have Gotthammer explaining the same point of view i had.
I would be really happy to get the Jervis answer on that point, even if I have not encountered this probleme since i'm playing SH. (I only play SH with friends whom has the same point of view on this question).

[Xas]

why all this hot air?

just spend the 2minutes talking to your partner before the game. if you can't agree on one ruling, roll a d6. if you can't even agree on that you either are haveing enough fun arguing or should not play with each othe either.


My personal opinion is that it would be cool but make the game much less luck reliant (because the last turn has a good chance of your searge beeing dead so you rely on pure luck to get enough cp).

Additionally I think that it would ahve been written clearly that this is an option if it was intended (many things are written twice and trice to be KISS compatible. a good example is the broodlord. even though his rules state that he needs to recieve two wounds from the same source it is stated explicitly that he is immune to flamers and psychic storm).

[Ivarr]

What it actually says is this:

"The command points counter is revealed in the status phase at the end of the turn. The Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter, and if he has used more command points than he had available he immediately loses the game."

Missing out a very important first sentence of the paragraph. If it didnt say this and just said the second sentence then I would be in total agreement with the people who claim this as cheating.

Also the arguement that you "wouldnt like to lose like this" is completely irrelevant. Whether you, me or anyone else likes to lose like this isnt a basis for arguing the legality of someones actions. No one here is trying to cheat, infact the arguement that at the very end of the game space marines can make a desperate last ditch push is quite in spirit with the rules so please drop this whole "its cheating" arguement and get back to a discussion about interpretation of the rules.

I disagree with your logic on this one. The first sentence does not include anything along the lines of "if you don't get to this phase, ignore the first half of the next sentence." The second sentence states a rule and then assigns a punishment for breaking it. Before the comma it states very very clearly that the rule for the game is that the SM player may not use more command points than shown on the counter. The second half says that if he does he loses in this phase. To me this is just an argument about cheating. There is no way to contest the fact that Space Hulk only functions the way it does because of random command points, and there is no question that the rules say that the Space Marine player is NOT ALLOWED to use more command points than the number shown on the counter, so there really is no question here. It is not even an interpretation thing. It is not other players being mean and jumping to the "cheating" word. The rules are very clear, and anyone who tries to suspend any portion of the rules to win is "CHEATING"...not being clever. In addition, the idea of saying that maybe we should dice off because I disagree is appalling. That just means that half of the time you get to break the rules. Not cool.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Using more CPs than drawn results in a loss, even if done accidently. Even if you have a clear conscience.

Deliberately using more CPs is cheating.

It doesn't matter if you are clever and can spin a web to justify it.

A man murders another man. He has a clever lawyer and because his Mummy didn't let him have a Ken doll when he was a little boy, he gets off scott free. He is still a murderer, whether or not the prosecutor can make a case stick.

Those who say it is not cheating or that they are not convinced by counter arguments are obviously intelligent people. They have gone through the rule book with a comb and feel they have a good argument that it is not cheating.

Your conscious seems to tell you it is cheating, otherwise you would never have asked if it was.

Stop being a lawyer.

It is a game, that is supposed to be enjoyable. If you play like that you will leave a sour taste in your friends mouths. Is it really worth it? - when you know that you didn't really win anyway....

Please keep the game enjoyable for you and your mates.

[Commander Dante]

Absolutely not! If the Marines can't complete their objective with the initiative they draw, then they have insufficient means to achieve success!

If you are unfortunate enough to be 1 point away from victory, and are completely spent, then that is either bad luck or bad planning!

That is part of the fun and drama of the game; the random draw is part of the fabric of the story ( I use small cloth bags for both CP and Blip draws - adds anti-cheating factor).