S.H.I.E.L.D the television show

[MaltonNecromancer]

It got too silly for me.

Ummm... It *was* a comedy. Comedy's kind of not supposed to be serious.

Whedon's best work is Buffy (seasons 2 to 6. 1 was okay, 7 was where the seasonal rot set in for me. I don't mind the fact they Fridged Tara, but a couple of my friends found it problematic. I also like the fact that they confronted suicidal depression quite overtly. A lot of people seem to miss Buffy's explicit suicide attempt because it's in the musical episode. Plus "The Body" is one of the greatest episodes of any TV drama ever.) Buffy was great. Angel was great (one of the only series I've ever seen where they overtly told the hero "You can never win" and it was true). Firefly was good, but the fact it's so short keeps it from being brilliant; it could have been brilliant if they'd given it more time. Dollhouse had some excellent bits, but was let down by the fact that Eliza Dushku is a terrible actress, Echo was a flat character, and they never really dealt with how absolutely, unremittingly evil the Dollhouse was. Again, largely because it was cancelled too soon. Which was a shame.

His runs on Astonishing X-Men and Runaways have both been superb IMO. If anyone can do a SHIELD series, he can. It would be nice to see the Civil War storyline done correctly (i.e. with a writing staff who had actually agreed on what the theme of the story was going to be ahead of time).

I wonder which minor characters they'll dust off to appear in this.

Frankly, I'm rather hoping for a Runaways crossover, although that'll never happen.

[eldargal]

Really? Some people need to learn to pay attention.

A lot of people seem to miss Buffy's explicit suicide attempt

Agree re: The Body and I also think Hush was brilliant, the villains especially.

[Mr Mystery]

I reckon we'll see Luke Cage turn up. Dead cheap character to do special effects for.

[Wildeybeast]

Suicide - the action of killing oneself intentionally [URL="http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/suicide?q=suicide"](OED)[/URL]

It's not a suicide attempt. She doesn't care whether she lives or dies, true, but she isn't actively trying to kill herself, she's just casually tossing her life away. Buffy of old would have fought, she just gives up. Admittedly she has pretty much lost the will to live, but she doesn't want to kill herself, she wants to sacrifice herself for a good cause (saving her sister) so she can get back to heaven. It's not that her life is so utterly terrible she can't stand it any more, it's just that she had earned her time in paradise and wants to be there rather than here. It may seem like a technical difference, but it goes to the heart of the character. Suicide is a selfish, cowardly act. Even in the depth of her despair, Buffy is never selfish and always looks to put others before herself.

[eldargal]

She knew it would kill her, though, I view it as no different to jumping in front of a train or suicide by cop etc. It all amounts to her being suicidal.

[MaltonNecromancer]

The whole "Buffy is sad because she's no longer in heaven" arc was kind of a key one for me; it used the whole thing to run a series-long arc giving one of the most detailed metaphorical dissections of serious clinical depression I've seen in a series. The reasons for her depression are clearly impossible, but the increasingly self-destructive, self-harming behaviour Buffy engages in are absolutely real. The suicide attempt in the musical episode is really important, as it's the point wherethe audience explicitly sees that Buffy isn't who she was in season 5; the selfless hero you refer to has gone. Which is what depression does to people - they go from being one person, and change utterly, and not for the better.

It's not a suicide attempt. She doesn't care whether she lives or dies, true, but she isn't actively trying to kill herself, she's just casually tossing her life away.

She knows dancing will kill her; they establish this early on as the reason the demon has to be stopped.

Buffy tells her friends that they've pulled her out of heaven, and back onto Earth, where every moment is agony by comparison. She turns to them, and sings/screams "Give me something to sing about! PLEASE!!" Here, she is obviously asking them "Give me a reason to be happy! Give me some possibility that things will get better!" This is quite important as it's the first time she's voiced her depression, and one of the key traits of clinical depression is the belief that the depression will last forever. Sufferers of actual clinical depression tend to be unable to envisage life without depression - it feels like being unhappy all the time is just the normal state of things. (It als bears stating - it's not; if you're a person who genuinely believes that life is pretty much miserable all the time, then there is a high probability you are suffering from some kind of clinical depression, and you should seek counselling. Thus speaketh the voice of a man with sixteen years of bitter experience.)

When none of them can say anything, well - what's the point in going on?

So she doesn't fight the demon, or do any of the heroic things she would have done in earlier seasons.

She says nothing more, and starts frenziedly dancing, knowing she will die. She has knowledge of the effects of the dance; she could choose not to. When her friends remain silent, she makes her choice.

What further proof of intent do you require?

It's also noticable that Dawn no longer matters, unlike season 5. Buffy's depression has left her feeling isolated, alone, and as though nothing else matters.

Suicide is a selfish, cowardly act. Even in the depth of her despair, Buffy is never selfish and always looks to put others before herself.

That's kind of the point of this episode. She is selfish now - she can't see beyond her own pain. Her friends put their pain at missing her ahead of her happiness (in heaven); why should she put anyone's pain ahead of hers? The fact that Buffy tries to kill herself illustrates just how broken she is. She knows what the dance will do, but she doesn't care, because all that matters is making the pain stop. Suicide is only a cowardly, selfish act from the outside, somewhere Buffy doesn't care about at that moment. Her selfishness is then further illustrated by the fact she starts a "relationship" with Spike, because feeling anything has become better than nothing... ignoring the fact that Spike's feelings are geniune, and to use him in such a way (even if he wants it - which he does) is appallingly immoral from her side. Her time with him over series 6 is one long bout of self-harm, using Spike as a tool to hurt herself, not even remotely caring about what that behaviour does to him. Which, I think, is a pretty good argument against the "always selfless" Buffy you refer to. She stopped being that person a long way back - the whole story of the season arc is about how she overcomes her depression and her selfishness to get back to the hero she was.

The whole thing is extremely dark and involves mature storytelling in the best possible sense, in that it's about complex adult emotions that exist beyond simpel "love = good, hate = evil" dynamics.

It's one of the single darkest moments in the whole series, but because they hid it amongst cheery song-and-dance numbers, and made the method of suicide so far removed from anything possible in the real world, people just kind of ignored it. It's not Buffy's lowest point, but it's certainly one of the bleakest moments.

It's not that her life is so utterly terrible she can't stand it any more, it's just that she had earned her time in paradise and wants to be there rather than here.

But it is that her life is so terrible that she can't stand it! The only way to get to paradise is to die, so that's what she chooses.

Like I say, Buffy was a great series - you could read the scene multiple ways.

[Verilance]

Firefly should have been everything I ever wanted in a Science Fiction show yet I could only watch the first episode and half of the second.

I will never understand the worship it is given????

[Wildeybeast]

The whole "Buffy is sad because she's no longer in heaven" arc was kind of a key one for me; it used the whole thing to run a series-long arc giving one of the most detailed metaphorical dissections of serious clinical depression I've seen in a series. The reasons for her depression are clearly impossible, but the increasingly self-destructive, self-harming behaviour Buffy engages in are absolutely real. The suicide attempt in the musical episode is really important, as it's the point wherethe audience explicitly sees that Buffy isn't who she was in season 5; the selfless hero you refer to has gone. Which is what depression does to people - they go from being one person, and change utterly, and not for the better.



She knows dancing will kill her; they establish this early on as the reason the demon has to be stopped.

Buffy tells her friends that they've pulled her out of heaven, and back onto Earth, where every moment is agony by comparison. She turns to them, and sings/screams "Give me something to sing about! PLEASE!!" Here, she is obviously asking them "Give me a reason to be happy! Give me some possibility that things will get better!" This is quite important as it's the first time she's voiced her depression, and one of the key traits of clinical depression is the belief that the depression will last forever. Sufferers of actual clinical depression tend to be unable to envisage life without depression - it feels like being unhappy all the time is just the normal state of things. (It als bears stating - it's not; if you're a person who genuinely believes that life is pretty much miserable all the time, then there is a high probability you are suffering from some kind of clinical depression, and you should seek counselling. Thus speaketh the voice of a man with sixteen years of bitter experience.)

When none of them can say anything, well - what's the point in going on?

So she doesn't fight the demon, or do any of the heroic things she would have done in earlier seasons.

She says nothing more, and starts frenziedly dancing, knowing she will die. She has knowledge of the effects of the dance; she could choose not to. When her friends remain silent, she makes her choice.

What further proof of intent do you require?

It's also noticable that Dawn no longer matters, unlike season 5. Buffy's depression has left her feeling isolated, alone, and as though nothing else matters.



That's kind of the point of this episode. She is selfish now - she can't see beyond her own pain. Her friends put their pain at missing her ahead of her happiness (in heaven); why should she put anyone's pain ahead of hers? The fact that Buffy tries to kill herself illustrates just how broken she is. She knows what the dance will do, but she doesn't care, because all that matters is making the pain stop. Suicide is only a cowardly, selfish act from the outside, somewhere Buffy doesn't care about at that moment. Her selfishness is then further illustrated by the fact she starts a "relationship" with Spike, because feeling anything has become better than nothing... ignoring the fact that Spike's feelings are geniune, and to use him in such a way (even if he wants it - which he does) is appallingly immoral from her side. Her time with him over series 6 is one long bout of self-harm, using Spike as a tool to hurt herself, not even remotely caring about what that behaviour does to him. Which, I think, is a pretty good argument against the "always selfless" Buffy you refer to. She stopped being that person a long way back - the whole story of the season arc is about how she overcomes her depression and her selfishness to get back to the hero she was.

The whole thing is extremely dark and involves mature storytelling in the best possible sense, in that it's about complex adult emotions that exist beyond simpel "love = good, hate = evil" dynamics.

It's one of the single darkest moments in the whole series, but because they hid it amongst cheery song-and-dance numbers, and made the method of suicide so far removed from anything possible in the real world, people just kind of ignored it. It's not Buffy's lowest point, but it's certainly one of the bleakest moments.



But it is that her life is so terrible that she can't stand it! The only way to get to paradise is to die, so that's what she chooses.

Like I say, Buffy was a great series - you could read the scene multiple ways.

Very well put, I agree with most of what you said (and I get the whole depression thing, been there, done that, got the t shirt). However, for me it's about nuances. There is a difference between wanting a heroic death and simply wanting an end to life. She doesn't hate this life, she just wants to go back to a better one. Her life is not terrible, it's no worse than it was before, it just sucks compared to heaven. And bear in mind that her depression is not 'medical' it's caused by an external source. There is no medication that will make you feel better about not being in paradise any more! If she really wanted to check out, would she have been so easily dissuaded by Spike? I doubt it. She wants something good/exciting/new in her life, a reason to live beyond helping the helpless and that's Spike. He doesn't need her help, he just needs her and that's her reason to go on. She is using Spike to a certain extent but there is some genuine feeling there. Her reaction when he keeps mum under torture from Glory is the first sign that she sees something good in him and her relationship with him in season 6 is further exploration of this. She gets to explore her feelings for him whilst denying them to herself under the cover that he is still 'evil' and it's purely physical. I think the season is much more about grief and a sense of emptiness in your life than it is depression. The season starts with the scoobies grieving for her, she is grieving for the loss of heaven, the nerds have nothing of any great value in their lives and need a sense of purpose, it ends with Willow dealing with the loss of Tara.

But as you say, this is why it's awesome, you can read it a number of ways and that's just mine.

[MaltonNecromancer]

There is a difference between wanting a heroic death and simply wanting an end to life

Exactly; that's what makes this so awful - it's not a heroic death. She just decides enough is enough and goes for it. Which is a perfect illustration of how horrible she feels. "Suicide as cowardly act" is a glib sentiment, because it nullifies the feelings of those who are suicidal ("You want to die? Well you're WEAK for feeling that way!" - something a lot of suicidal people already feel in their hearts is true, and something that may well be contributing to their suicidal feelings in the first place) , and those feelings need to be acknowledged before they can be overcome.

Which is why she so suddenly turns to Spike; he's the only one who acknowledges her pain, rather than his own. Her suicide attempt is of the "cry for help" variety, but that doesn't mean it's not a valid attempt. "Cry for help" suicides should be taken just as seriously, because the person is still trying to end themselves.

On an unrelated note, I seriously hope the SHIELD series allows for this level of discussion.

there is some genuine feeling there.

I don't believe there is; I definitely think she wants there to be, because that would go some way to ameliorating the self-hate that drove her to him. I "liked" (in the sense that it was compelling viewing) her relationship with Spike because it was so horribly codependent, and they never went anywhere positive with it. There are some glorious moments, like where she acknowledges that she feels nothing for him, and it simply using him. The fact she calls finally him William, dropping all the accreted nonsense between them just for a moment, is one of the most touching things I've seen in genre TV.

There's also his final acknowledgment that the relationship was one-way when she tells him she loves him, and he says "No you don't. But thanks for saying it." Magnificent. The best she can manage for Spike is an absence of hatred. Which isn't to say she doesn't find him massively attractive - she clearly does. But then sexual atttaction, romantic love, and intimacy are all entirely separate things, and only when all coexist in a relationship could you describe it as "loving" in a healthy way.

Buffy (the series) was so, so brilliant.

Sweet mercy I want the SHIELD series to be as good.

[Psychosplodge]

Suicide is a selfish, cowardly act.

I disagree with this statement. Suicide should be everyone's right.