Chaos Space Marine FACT Roundup

[BatMarine]

nice for BL players . now what about those legion armies NL or AL or anything non cult . Or worse what about those poor 1ksons shmucks that against got served ?

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puting the viability of hth terminators aside for a second or assault armies/units as a whole in 6th ed . how many chaos player own mass khorn termintors ? non or very few . this means being forced to buy stuff and not using stuff you already own . no want who already has an army wants to buy another one , specialy when it will cost more then it did when he bought his first one . PMs ? bad . DPs ? ultra bad . oblits ? not bad per se , but there is other stuff to take and they cant get anti flyer upgrades . A chaos player has to buy a whole new army for 6th ed . At the same time his IG friend , buys nothing save for an aegis . His necron friend buys nothing . His GK friend buys nothing etc etc etc . Is it so hard to understand why people may not like that . Specialy as chaos players didnt realy like the codex Thorpe gave them .

As a NL player, call them special equipment, augmetics, combat drugs, etc. A little creativity goes a long way, hell you could even have a squad or two that's fallen, but they're still just so dang useful they still get some field time despite their corruption (Fluff example: Uzas)

Point: there are plenty of examples for a creative player as long as you have a way to mark it (a piece of paper, or laminated coin with the symbol could work if you don't want to model it, and then you're able to change it out as well. I'd have no hesitation calling +1 initiative the dirty fighting bonus of night lords rather than a Slaanesh worship, as long as there are signifiers.

As for buying a whole new army for the edition... The edition actually doesn't have much to do with it, it's a new codex that's the cause, and you can't tell me that at a new codex it's not normal to need new stuff. I own Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Necrons, and I can assure you there were some new units (in Necrons especially) and a lot of old stuff went to the wayside (Carnifexes for example) and in two of those cases (Necrons and Dark Eldar) the codices were so old they were re-made nearly from the ground up, with a TON of models being replaces (Taloi) or being completely left out of the army (Pariahs).

So complaining that you have to buy new stuff for a new codex release (which contains units you don't/can't own yet) is a little bit silly don't you think? This is a new codex, with a more flexible and balanced (Internally at least) set of choices. We should welcome it as the change Chaos needs right now, even if it's not the one it deserves.

[Learn2Eel]

this isnt WFB there is no charge redirection in w40k and with first blood in taking weak easy to kill troops is a recipy for disaster . One could of course take an aegis and play it IG style , but without orders to get up and without weapon teams or at least plasma guns , it makes little sense game wise to take cultists.

realy ? a hth army is just as adaptable to any game as scyth wing or IG lists . at how many points played does that start to happen and how tall/windowless the LoS! terrain has to be for that to happen




Maybe if he was an eldar.



what do you mean by most ? all imperials battle brother SW save for GK . eldar tau and dark eldar run either priests or seers . the only ones that dont is chaos [pre new dex] , necron[dont need it] and nids[cant , but technicly have shadow] and am not a math person , but am sure that avarge out of 3d6 is 11.

feel no pain.

A chaos powers are still worse then rule book P-school
B we still dont have a hood and cant run RP/seers like almost everyone else
C biomancy for chaos is win more . now if fiends or the dragon could get psyker level 1 with mark of tzeench it would be different.



he doesnt . on both counts + again high cost HQ that has to be run in weaker versions of LR isnt realy a boost.



and they you notice they are flyers and you cant hit them in melee.




ill drop the cost of a lemman russ by 20 pts but switcht the gun to str7 ap 4 . how offten will it see use ?


2 different set of warlord traits. one of psykers and one for non psykers [pirate prince , autarch , phoenix lords. asur dude roll 2 times] . avatar cant roll on the warlord table and cant be the army general .

It makes little sense to take Cultists? They are meat-shields that can be quite nasty if left unattended on the charge. Against other light infantry, and even heavier infantry, they could do quite a bit of damage on the charge. They are also cheap as chips, and can get some crazy buffs. How about being Fearless, or having Furious Charge, or Feel No Pain, or being Plague Zombies? In any case, thanks for making an assumption based on little facts.

Ok, if you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that HtH armies are still viable, but, as is the case with 6th edition, you have to work them differently. You have to think more clearly about charge distance, overwatch (i.e using cheap meat-shields to soak up overwatch), transport and what not. Yes, they aren't as great as they used to be, but it is all about making them work. It just so happens that the top armies at the moment shoot better than anyone else (exluding poor Tau) per point.

Umm, I don't understand the comment. What difference does it make if he is an Eldar?

Ok, do you not understand that I was specifically talking about CODEXES and not ALLIES? If you understand that, then you see my point. Not everyone does an obligatory mini-alliance with Space Wolves or Eldar for psychic defence. Nids can't? What? They have a similar psychic defence to Eldar, it just doesn't affect an entire board. Nids do it better than everyone except Eldar and Space Wolves. The average is 10 or 11, yes. I was being a bit of a numpty and forgot that you can't roll less than 2.

Yeah ok, and I already said that was a bit of a nerf. But when you realize that, within their own codex, they were OP, it makes sense. It also makes sense from a fluff perspective. And as I have said on numerous occasions, the codex is stronger on the whole and you get different toys to compensate. A Nurgle Daemon Prince in the new rules will be much harder to kill from anti-tank fire, that's for sure. You also get more codex psychic powers. If you complain about the Feel No Pain nerf then you are probably quite happy to have a unit that is clearly much better than all the rest in what is supposed to be the core of themed lists. I'm sorry, but that's wrong.

A) It's easy to judge based on the powers alone. The fact of the matter is that, like with Eldar or Space Wolves, the powers in the BRB might sound better but the codex powers for those races work better for them. I would also say that is the case with Grey Knights and Mephiston, amongst others. The fact you are also ignoring is that the new powers are a lot better than the previous ones, and open the way for some more interesting builds. Yes, you get them randomly, but you also don't have to pay the points for them anymore. I'd say that is a big win, especially considering we are going to be getting Grey Knight styled Mastery Level goodness (lots of 2s and 3s potentially). How about you wait and see how they synergize with the army list first? Again, S3 marines against T5 Nurgle marines = insane profit.
B) Ok then, now tell me what new psychic defence we have in the book? Hmm? That's right, we don't know yet for sure. Stop whining about something you don't know about yet. We do know Khorne lists will be getting better psyker defence than most codexes. You should know that hoods aren't that crash hot anymore. Your psyker can count as being in a unit for DtW purposes that is 6" away. Not that great. Who cares? How much do you need psyker defence anyway? I'm sorry that not all of us do min/max lists with the mini Eldrad/Pathfinders contingent.
C) I really have no idea what you are trying to say here. I assume from your second sentence that you are saying this isn't worth much. I'm going to sit here and laugh. You do realize Daemon Princes will be able to take Biomancy now right? Oh, and we can put more psykers on the board, all of them good in combat, than a lot of other armies. We also have access to one of the better combat psykers (Typhus) in the game - whether he gets access to non-Nurgle powers is debatable.

What? Have you seen the codex? Please inform us what Ahriman and all the other characters do, because we want to know. How about this - in the current rules, he does so. He auto-passes psychic tests except for his force weapon, and is also immune to Perils of the Warp. It says so pretty clearly in his rules. Now tell me, how do you they are changing that? Land Raider or Deep-Strike, what does it matter? You put him with Terminators in a Land Raider. We might not get better capacity like Loyalists do, but four Terminators with Typhus can still dish out a pouding. Loyalists usually use Land Raiders to deliver Terminator HQs as well. I don't see the relevance. Also, how do you know his points cost? He could be much cheaper for all we know and still be more useful. Again, you know nothing and are twisting all of your assumptions to be negative.

That is a stupid comment. Really? Dropping a Leman Russ by 20 points for a S7 AP4 gun? Really? Fine, tell me how everything is WORSE then.

[Learn2Eel]

because the DT has no idea how to balance MC , so the safer way it to make vehicles out of everything and nerfed the DP in to non viable . they did the same with ctan in the necron book . And we are going to be waiting years for a nid one .

and GK ? well the problem with Ward desing is that , if he thinks stuff should be powerful [to a edition destroying level] , he will do it . He doesnt have any "I may be taking this to far" build in like H-man or Chambers had [H-man actualy removed some rules for IW , in the first version of the dex they had dread squadrons for example].


true . this is again the question of . Do you want a unit of terminator costed +3sv dudes that do hth . We had that before possessed/hth chosen vs zerkers.



ah and before anyone says , am dissing the codex. I love it . For example in my version the eye of the god table roll that improves the save by +1 doesnt have the "to a maximum of +2" in it.So behold the +1 sv terminator armor/warpsmith. I realy wish they gave lords/sorc an option to get a chaos rune/artificer power armor .


point drops and rises dont work like that in GW games . And by the way IG already has an lemman like that and it is never used , guess the sarcasm got missed somewhere.


So you want to tell me that it would be ok for chaos player getting a few months of good dex for the 5+years of crappy dex ? And to do master class conversions you dont need a new dex, all you need is some sculpting skills .

Umm, how do you know that's what they did? You do realize most armies don't even have access to a monstrous creature right? Now I'm start to get really annoyed. How do you KNOW the Daemon Prince has been nerfed so as to be non-viable? You DON'T know! Wait to see the damn codex! The only thing we know is that Marks for Daemon Princes work differently now; Khorne ones get Furious Charge, Nurgle ones get Shrouding and Slow and Purposeful, Tzeentch ones can re-roll all saving throws of 1, and Slaanesh ones get Fleet, Rending and +3" additional Run movement. Rumours say they are more expensive base, and pay more for wings to put them more in the price bracket of Hive Tyrants. But, the same rumours also say their statline is better than it was. Until you know, how in the hell can you say they have been nerfed to hell, let alone being un-viable? Does your mind not understand the difference between fact and conjecture? We don't know most of the facts, yet you somehow already know the Daemon Prince is no longer competitive? Also, I find your C'Tan comment quite funny. How are C'Tan Shards not viable, exactly? You pay the points for a crazy monstrous creature. I've seen lots of competitive lists featuring one of them, and there are some nasty combinations for them to boot. Take Orikan and a Writhing Worldscape C'Tan Shard and tell me that isn't nasty - it was in 5th Edition, and it is still a good tactic in 6th. Everyone knows how powerful they are, which is why they are massive fire magnets - something monstrous creatures do well. And they are also tougher than most - T7 and a +4 invulnerable isn't as good against S4 AP5 as T6 +3 armour, but you can't be hurt by S3 and you are more resistant to AT weaponry.

Wow, they've changed Chosen around. Gee. What a massive nerf to the codex that we can't take 5 man units with 3-4 special weapons that Outflank. That was the old codex, where most of our AT firepower came from short-range shooting, much like Grey Hunters. Ok. Explain to me why the entire codex still functions that way when we have several more long-range options for our AT, such as Forgefiends and Hellbrutes (who are now much better in that role due to not being able to shoot friendly units). This is another case of the changing style of the codex. You have to accept that we can't take units for the same purpose anymore. There were always going to be big changes, especially to some particular units. It means Chaos players have to rethink how we write our army lists. Also, how exactly are they terminator-costed? I don't understand how 15-18 points equates to +30 points per model? Good work.

You love the codex so much you are taking so much time to break down the posts of anyone that thinks we are getting some good buffs based on what we have seen whilst making assumptions of your own about the viability and usefulness of units when you don't now the points values or a lot of the rules and wargear options. Uh-huh. We do have Fleshmetal now, but as to who can take it, no-one knows yet.
Which one isn't used? The Punisher? Or the Executioner? I've seen them used quite a bit.

[Learn2Eel]

yes of course . because we 6th being so new and fresh we are still waiting for that point in the future when people will find out that shoting and specialy flyers are good in 6th ed. No wait , people knew that as soon as they had reliable leaks about the rule book.

nice for BL players . now what about those legion armies NL or AL or anything non cult . Or worse what about those poor 1ksons shmucks that against got served ?

yes of course , becase in the era of +2 sv being so dominant , having 5 plasma guns , which were also good at knocking down hull points of av12 or lower stuff, was totaly bad .



I like the almost part and I hope your doing this per all units from the all dex that are in the new one and not everything that is actualy good. because most good stuff aint cheap and without ATKNF chaos has a huge problem in 6th.











puting the viability of hth terminators aside for a second or assault armies/units as a whole in 6th ed . how many chaos player own mass khorn termintors ? non or very few . this means being forced to buy stuff and not using stuff you already own . no want who already has an army wants to buy another one , specialy when it will cost more then it did when he bought his first one . PMs ? bad . DPs ? ultra bad . oblits ? not bad per se , but there is other stuff to take and they cant get anti flyer upgrades . A chaos player has to buy a whole new army for 6th ed . At the same time his IG friend , buys nothing save for an aegis . His necron friend buys nothing . His GK friend buys nothing etc etc etc . Is it so hard to understand why people may not like that . Specialy as chaos players didnt realy like the codex Thorpe gave them .

Alright, cool. Your point being? We have the capacity for shooty lists. Our basic Chaos Space Marines are quite similar to Grey Hunters - cheap, can do shooting and charges pretty well, and our Chaos Marines also have the potential to get Counter-Attack, like Grey Hunters, as well as Rage. It also makes me laugh that Chaos is called a combat army that doesn't do shooting well. In my local meta, my Chaos army does shooting very well. I've only played Chaos for a year, but I know intrinsically how to write good army lists for them. And it doesn't always involve Plague Marines/Lash Princes/Obliterators. I actually don't even make use of any of them, and I still make viable lists for local play. Why? I know what works, and I also know what I am doing. The reality you can't seem to accept is that having a good army list is fun and all, but it doesn't compare to knowing how to use it. The exception being flyer-spam.
You say it is obvious flyers and shooting are central to competitive 6th edition play in response to someone talking about how we don't know about the codex yet. Do you realize how foolish that is?
First off - we've got a flyer, and judging by all reports - and I mean all - it is going to be one of the most brutal flyer-hunters around, and one that will also be able to put the pain on ground units. We don't know for sure, but we actually do have a flyer. So I don't understand your comment at all. And secondly, again, how do you know we are bad at shooting exactly? You don't know jack about the codex and points costs. We could put out more long-range firepower than Psyflemen-spam lists could ever hope for. We don't know yet. So please, stop whining and wait for the codex before you make such ridiculous judgements.

How exactly are non-Black Legion players getting the bad end of the stick? How the hell do you know that? You DON'T know! Those Night Lords that got a new type of Raptor that look like interesting units, or those Alpha Legion players that got Cultists? What do those non-cult units get again? Let's see, you can mix-match marks and icons however you want to make the most out of 'competitive' options, take lots of new options that we didn't have before, have cheaper Chaos Space Marines, have characters with loads of customization potential, grant Fearless to a unit, and so on. Did I mention the new long-range firepower options we are getting? What about the flyer? Or the close-combat Obliterators? Yes, Undivided players aren't getting anything good at all. Nope, not a thing. And those poor Thousand Sons you don't know the points cost for? How did they get shafted exactly? From what the WD has shown us, we are getting; 1) better psychic powers, 2) better BRB powers, 3) the addition of Soul Blaze, 4) wargear to re-roll psychic tests, 5) mastery level 3 and 4 psykers. Where did we get shafted? Pull out your codex and tell me how they are more expensive and what they've lost.

Laughable. You know, +2 save is nowhere near as dominant as people make it out to be. Terminators have always fallen to the same thing that any codex has; lots and lots of dakka. That has always been the best way to kill them, AP2 or no. Sheer amounts of saves has always been more efficient than smaller numbers of AP2 weapons. That Chosen squad might kill the Terminators quickly, but how expensive and fragile are the Chosen as well? And how obvious a target are they for your opponent? A 10-man squad of Chaos Space Marines with two meltaguns or plasma guns will do it for cheaper and do it well too. No one is saying Chosen were bad in that role, but I never used them and was fine for AT. We have different options now, i.e. the Forgefiend. We now have more long-range firepower and other AT methods so we don't have to rely on said Chosen units, who now have a different role.

What? I don't get it. Rumours say most things are the codex are cheaper. Now explain to me why that also means they must have been nerfed even though from what we can tell everything is getting a boost (bar Plague Marines). But that's the funny thing - perhaps Plague Marines retain Feel No Pain? Who knows, because most rumours said they still do. Again, it's unlikely it seems, but we don't know for sure. If they've lost Feel No Pain, it means they've gotten something in return - aside from Fear. Again, wait and see. They are probably cheaper too. Now you aren't making sense. How do you KNOW that our good stuff won't be cheap? Grey Hunters are cheap, and entire army lists are built around spamming them! How do you know it won't be the same for our codex? How do you know that a range of competitive options aren't going to emerge? How do you know what units are effective and what aren't? Please give us this codex, we want it know! I wonder, how does not having ATSKNF provide a massive problem for us? Have you seen what our basic icon does? Have you also seen how the Fearless rules work now? Trust me, not having that is not as big a weakness as you claim, considering we can give Fearless to any squad that can take an Icon or doesn't have it already (of which lots of units in our old codex did). Yes, ATSKNF is great, but Fearless is quite good in 6th edition too.

Again. I must ask. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT UNITS IN THE CODEX ARE BAD WHEN YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET.
How do you know Plague Marines are bad?
How do you know Daemon Princes are 'ultra bad'?
How do you know Obliterators aren't useful because they can't take anti-flyer upgrades? Yeah, those mean Obliterators that were spammed in the old codex, are getting Assault Cannons and we don't know all the changes for.
Give me a break.
Also, how do you Khorne Terminators won't be viable now? Considering they can get Rage, Counter Attack and Furious Charge, why exactly will they not be used? Combat terminators are still effective. Ones that get +2 attacks on the charge and +1 if you charge them as well as S5 on the charge would be pretty scary in anyone's book. Terminators that put out loads of attacks? Who wouldn't want that exactly?

Well. Ok. You've just made one of the most ridiculous points I have ever seen. You are complaining that a Chaos player has to buy a new army for 6th Edition, but an Imperial Guard player or Necron player doesn't. Ok.
Let's look at the differences between those three armies, shall we?
Let's see;
Necrons and Imperial Guard - no new codex in 6th Edition
Chaos Space Marines - new codex in 6th Edition

Ummm.......
NEW CODEX DEMANDS NEW ARMY. Are you for real!? Chaos Space Marines are getting REDONE. Necrons and Imperial Guard AREN'T. Hence why Chaos players will buy new armies, and Necrons/Imperial Guard won't! I put 'NEW CODEX DEMANDS NEW ARMY' in Bold, Italics and Underlined it for your convenience. You know what happened when Necrons were redone? Entirely new armies were bought to fit the rules, because running Monolith/Warrior phalanxes with a C'Tan no longer worked like it used to. Now they have lots of new toys and due to the balancing of the codex entire armies have changed. Now explain to me why adjusting the army list and adding a host of new options won't also lead to completely revamped Chaos Space Marines army lists. I'm waiting.
Also, by the way, you say Necron and Imperial Guard players didn't buy new armies, yet you also go on and on about flyers being king in 6th. You do realize a large number of Necron armies are now flyer-spam armies? You do also realize a large number of Imperial Guard armies are now Vendetta-spam armies? I think that sounds like they bought new armies, doesn't it?

Really.....I can't believe what I am reading. Seriously. Lol.
I can't wait to see what the Eldar re-release will be like. Everyone will complain about how they are even worse one month in advance and cry for days because GW isn't making new OP codexes, ones they haven't seen yet.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Well I will definitly be buying that Aspiring Champion, like it even more now I can see the 360 ect. I think for the rest I'll ebay the DV Chosen and Helbrutes and convert the cultists (have a specific look for them).

[Learn2Eel]

Well I will definitly be buying that Aspiring Champion, like it even more now I can see the 360 ect. I think for the rest I'll ebay the DV Chosen and Helbrutes and convert the cultists (have a specific look for them).

I think I will too, but I'm not sure where'd I'd put him lol.
Doing a themed list? A lot of people are going to be very happy with Cultists, especially Nurgle players methinks. Plague Zombies anyone? Especially considering Plague Xombies have been confirmed IIRC. I'm thinking I will use them in my Thousand Sons as Prospero Guard, but whether I use cultist rules or guardsmen rules is the question I guess.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Yeah, i'm really glad they brought back Cultists - theres way too many things you can do with them. I will probably sculpt my cultists actually, as I want them to be non-humanoid aliens that have fallen to the dark powers, plus I want my Chaos marines to have a lovecraftian theme that isnt cthulhu-based.

[isotope99]

Instant reactions:

Codex Limited edition: Never understood the need for a collectors edition of something that will either get wear and tear through use or be made redundant, but if you have the cash it's not like it's compulsory.

Codex: The new hardback codices are nicer, but the price is at a point where I'd want to be certain I was doing an army before I bought it and wouldn't buy it to read or do opposition research. I don't know if the price is putting off new hobbyists but the start-up costs for 40K are extreme these days.

Psychic cards: A nice optional extra. Overpriced of course, but not compulsory.

Helldrake: I like it a bit better from the 360 on the GW site but I still think I'd want to convert it into something closer to the helltalon rather than the OTT dragon design: 6.5/10

Fiend: Not really liking the example setups that much but the sheer number of options means it should be easy to get a combo of parts that does suit: 8.5/10

Raptors: These are really great. Loses a point for the warp talon 'wings' and teeth in the jet intakes but overall very positive. 9/10

Aspiring champion: Love this kit, loads of great detail and goes really well with the DV kits. Shame they couldn't squeeze on a few weapon/head options for the price though. 9/10

Finecast mutilators: Oh dear, was hoping for a plastic combo obliterator kit but these guys take the obliterator design and make it worse from the bad face-lift heads to the poorly detailed claws. 4/10 {aside, nice price drop for 3 pack of obliterators}

Finecast sorceror: Boring compared to the other options and expensive compared to the thousand sons upgrade kit. Never liked the loining together of the horns either. 6/10

Finecast Dark apostle: A little OTT and I'm not sure about the angled halo or the head but very dynamic and would make a great alternative sorceror. 7.5/10

Finecast warpsmith: Cluttered, I sympathise with the designer's desire to cram lots of cool pieces into it but there is a bit too much going on here. Easy to scale back though and provides lots of cool parts, just disappointed not done as plastic clampack: 8.5/10

Finecast conversions: Not going to comment on these individually, as usual there are some where they look good and OK value as indicated above and some not so much. Worst pic is this one, armed with knuckledusters instead of lightning claws:

aww, they fixed it now. Still looks a bit dodgy with that trophy rack though

[Flammenwerfer13]

No those are lighting claws, just a horrible photoshop that covered up the claws

[BatMarine]

I can't believe they made that mistake. I reloaded like three times to check, and sure enough, still got a manicure (You can still see his right ring finger!)