Codex Substitution/Counts as

[crazyredpraetorian]

This subject came up in one of Goatboy's recent blogs. He is modeling an army that is "chaosy" but he will be using the Sw Codex. I think this is a great concept and should be a lot of fun. However, I have noticed a lot of people are making comments about using the SW codex for ______________. You fill in the blank, it is the flavor of the month. Personally, I don't agree with this line of thinking. I think most are doing it to gain an advantage for their army NOT because "it fits MY fluff better". I am not looking forward to going to tournaments and seeing 90% SWs. Especially, if only a small portion of those armies are ACTUALLY modeled as SWs.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

[jeffersonian000]

I've been doing this since I started playing 5th. My Marine army is from 2nd edition (Legion of the Damned), and has no comparable codex to their former play style with the exception of a single awkward entry in the current Space Marine codex. As such, most of the time I "count" them as vanilla Marines, but sometimes I "count" them as Black Templars, or Blood Angles, or even Chaos Marines. With the new SW codex, I can now “count” them as Wolves.

For many, it may just be a flavor of the month thing. For me, it's the ability to put a new spin on an old army.

SJ

[Lord Azaghul]

Counts as it fine in small levels, like one or two squads, as in I haven't bought the models yest, but want to try it out. Now the whole 'I want my CM to be a better army, so I'm going to use SM rules' thing is a little silly. Its like taking HE models to a touriment then explaining to every opponent that you're playing DE instead - it just created an unneccesary cloud of confusion.

[Melissia]

I have no intention of doing it myself, but I have no problem with it. If someone wants to play a CSM army with an SM playstyle to it, why do I care? They're all Marines anyway. If an Ork player wants to have a squad of IG conscripts count as if they were grots, sure, why not? Heck, I even played against someone whom used Sisters models to play a female Marine army.

Just so long as the models could feasibly be what you're saying they count as, it's okay with me.

[FirstLegion]

I view "counts-as" completely differently than just using the flavor of the month codex. I also think that using proxies to test out a particular build or codex because you'd like to build such an army for real is perfectly acceptable.

I'm in the same boat as CrazyRed and I can almost guarantee there will be 5 or 6 wolf armies at each of the next tournaments here. Maybe 1 or two of them will be real. Also knowing that CrazyRed is investing a large amount of time and resources building his REAL wolf army, it would upset me just as much.

Aims is currently mulling over building a wolf army, but it will be ONLY a wolf army. It wont be transferred to any other codex.

That being said, none of the options in the poll fit my view. I ADORE counts as armies, if they are real counts as armies. I'm even okay with an army like one locally, an Hrud army that can be easily used as Tau or Eldar. Because it's 100% custom, I feel he's earned that right. Taking that into account, I DON'T think it's okay to play an obvious Dark Angels army as CSM one day, SM the next, and SW after that.

[brother drakist]

I'm of the opinion that it's my opponents plastic men so he can do whatever he wants with them as long as I am notified prior to the game. Just like units without WISYWIG armaments I need to know before we actually start. If told after we start to play then I am against "counts as."

[Herald of Nurgle]

Counts as it fine in small levels, like one or two squads, as in I haven't bought the models yest, but want to try it out. Now the whole 'I want my CM to be a better army, so I'm going to use SM rules' thing is a little silly. Its like taking HE models to a touriment then explaining to every opponent that you're playing DE instead - it just created an unneccesary cloud of confusion.

HE -> DE isn't as major a change though is it? Specially since DE is mainly just spiky HE with a <few> exceptions.

In my opinion, let 'em be. Nurgle cares not for whom he infects. Khorne says only to let the blood flow. Tzeentch will have fun having some psychic duels... and no-one talks about Slaanesh.

[BuFFo]

Tournaments are an abomination to the hobby anyway, so who cares what tourney organizers think.

The indisputable fact is that you are playing a game by its rules. The rules allow for both 'wysiwyg' and 'count as'.

So as long as your models are 'wysiwyg' then 'count as' does NOT matter in any shape or form. It doesn't matter what piece of plastic is representing the rules for a Grey Hunter, as long as it is not confusing to your opponent, as per 'wysiwyg'.

Opponents of 'count as' seem to tack on 'cheap, cheesy and bandwagoning' as if the two are bound at the wrist.

No.

The person may be cheesy, cheap, and bandwagoning, but not the rules / models. And when you take this venomous attitude, this mythical hobbyist you create in your mind, and in these threads, do a HUGE DISCREDIT to the legion of posters/hobbyists who 'count as' for fun, fluff and fairness.

So far, on the blog and here, I have seen, what, 20+ people who 'count as' for fun, and zero who do it for cheese reasons?



Don't blame the game. Blame the player.

[Aegis]

I think of counts as and proxy as two different concepts, which seem to be almost blurred (at least in the theme of this thread, though I could be very mistaken).

I have nothing against either, but in the case of 'counts as', I would like to see something noticeable ti distinguish them from what they are. For instance, use IG models to make a some form of rogue hive army (or something like that) using the Ork book, make them look a bit more gang like. Vague example, I know, but best I could do late at night.

[Commissar Lewis]

Yeah, in my mind it's alright. When people start getting up in arms, that's when the hobby becomes not fun anymore. I play for fun. I don't care if I lose as long as I have fun. Which is why I'm never playing in a tournament because the fair maidens of Sportsmanship and Fun get loaded and pass out during tournaments.

Counts As armies, as long as they are done well, are fun and interesting to play against.

I dunno, it's midnight and I have a cold, so my points may be a bit off.