Why has GW never acknowledged female space marines?

[Denzark]

And once more into the fray - the FSM issue is raising its head in another thread. So, I thought I would canvas why people think GW has never acknowledged female Space Marines.

In fact, quite the opposite - a quote from a WD article on the Legion Astartes, re-printed in the W40K compendium:

"...These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become space marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening."

Now, lets ignore the science. Real life science obviously does not apply, 40K science is full of paradoxes (how come only a handful of jetbikes in the 41st millenium imperium but 'harder' technology such as titan mind impulse links still in abundance?

Staying on topic, why do you think GW has not rectified this fluff? After all it would not hurt sales - I think there must be a reason for specifically not doing so. My reasons as follows:

1. Within the paradoxical 40K science it makes sense (lost technology, females weaker whatever).

2. Within the socio-political climate of the imperium, it makes sense. (same sex military units more cohesive than mixed, attitude to females [outside cadia etc]).

3. GW just like f*cking with us.

4. GW feel no need to pander to (transatlantic?) political correctness.

5. GW couldn't give a stuff either way about PC but like the idea of an all male preserve - after all you couldn't get away with it in real life.

6. They think it would absolutely nothing to the fluff - if it ain't broken don't fix.


For myself, as it would not hurt and might enhance sales, I think reason 6 most likely.

PS don't consider the old females in power armour models to be opposing proof - I consider them precursor SoB and along the lines of the drunken Christmas Marine in terms of import to the canon.

Have at it.

[Mr Mystery]

Meh. The background is well explained.

And perhaps the Emperor was a bit of a fruit....hint of lavender around the Golden Throne...

[DWest]

Couple of thoughts on the lack of Y chromosomes within the Adeptus Astartes:
1- Until the GW team can reliably sculpt good-looking female models, I can't see them trying to mess with the 'poster boys'

2- Space Marines especially market to the adolescent audience, and female models would probably draw a lot of heat from people who shouldn't really care, but do.

3- From reading several of the Heresy books, the Astartes are portrayed as tremendously broken, nearly non-human figures, and the lack of female Astartes or even the ability to interact on an intimate level is definitely part of that. I may be reading too much into the situation, but it seems deliberate from what I've read for the Legions/Chapters to be missing large chunks of what would otherwise make them human (but then again this is a world that says you would live a life of thankless drudgery and then die horribly and portrays that as being cool, so who knows?)

[Deadlift]

Maybe worried that if they did introduce FSM it might end up in a nerd rage meltdown and cost them business. Anyway theres always Sisters of battle, I think they are quite cool as they are. For those who really want their ladies in proper power armour, Female inquisitor in Terminator armour. That would be one cool model/kitbash.

[Fantomex]

I'd have said it was a combination of factors.

GW simply has no need to do it, and if anything I think it would dehumanise and denigrate in some really odd, warped ways.
We see enough examples in the background of humans reflecting and observing on the horrible, scarring, process of creating an Astartes, and I think it would be a bit of a leap to say "oh yeah, check out these sweet girls, about to go get sliced up and turned into almost inhuman hulks of pure single-minded killing".

It's a minefield of personal emotional responses and perceptions of decency and good taste, essentially.

We see little boys fighting and playing with toys that involve guns, conflict, etc, but it's less common in girls. As a blunt generalisation, that rings pretty true.

By simplifying the entire background of 40K, it generally shows the futility and wastefulness of war and conflict, and if we look back similarly simplified in our own history, for the most part war has been a very male-oriented event.

Simply, it all fits, both real-world logically, and background-logically.

I'd have said that the pseudo-science behind the creation of the Thunder Warriors, the Custodes and the Astartes chimes in pretty well with things we already know about genetics today.

Testosterone is shown to have proven links to aggressive behaviour and fighting, I imagine that tweaking that would be a whole lot easier than having to create something from scratch and experiment with it.

Making something as a readily-usable genetic base that works on a large majority of male subjects is obviously the simpler solution, as is done with the gene-seed.

Add in the fact that you're essentially creating hyper-autistic children in the bodies of acid-spitting supermen with concrete-bones, unable to fall prone to almost every malady afflicting regular humans, you're tweaking them to be almost psychopathic (yet controllable) with rage at the thought of fighting their enemies, and you've basically got the perfect army.

Why would they need to bring women in and do similar? I'd have argued that they would be a lot more important in siring the next generation of kids who will become Astartes.
Plus, with the synthetic hormones and other organs implanted into a male human, who knows what the effects would be?

The menstrual cycle alone would be either highly disrupted or highly disruptive should you implement such sweeping change, though I'd have imagined a grim process like is witnessed in the creation of an Astartes would have possibly involved even a hysterectomy in order to balance the body and "normalise" the subject?

Hell, I'm likely looking far too deep and trying to rationalise something totally impossible to do so to..

End of the day, it's the fluff!
I like it, the female Astartes argument has been done to death, far as I'm concerned, if the Emperor made them like that, who am I to argue?

[Denzark]

Very considered Fantomex - but whilst I agree 'its the fluff' I would like to hear why people think GW have left the fluff in this state - people will and have been arguing both sides of the coin but the fact is is that no FSMs IS the current fluff - so why is GW happy with that?

[Fantomex]

Denzark, I reckon, purely as a popularity-with-the-fans point of view, it'd be so HUGE a step to retcon such a thing that it would honestly appear to be as if they were acquiescing to "political correctness" or similar perception of social dilemma..

I suppose the most obvious point is that to rock the boat in such a way would not please everyone, and that is something they'd not be willing to do, considering that tabletop 40k itself is over 50% of the value of the entire company and all its divisions..

With any other bit of the background, changes can sometimes be subtle, sometimes more than subtle, but never something so drastic.

C'tan changing from being actual gods to broken amnesiac controlled shards of gods? I'm good with that.
T'au Ethereals being created by the Eldar as controls to use in the fight against Chaos? Cool by me.

Heck, look at the Squats.
Spontaneous ULTRA RACE DEATH BY TYRANIDS RAARRRRGGGHHHHHH!

That was throwing a match at a very flammable pile of fanboy rage, it's the 40k equivalent of Greedo shooting first..

The fact they've been subtly slipped back into the fluff as Demiurg and now in the 6th ed BRB? I'm fine with that too.

I reckon it'd simply come down to lots of hardcore fans doing the OMGZ ITZ NOT RITE WHY IS THERE LADY MARINEZ I HAET DIS thing and getting worked up over nothing.

Why risk the fallout when you've done pretty well so far?


Plus, in a purely sensible argument, I'd say just look at the models.

Astartes are hulking slabs of muscle so utterly different from even human bodybuilding champions that if you did the same to a girl, she'd surely come out looking the same, wear the same armour, and be indistinguishable from a male Astartes once suited up.

Even GW wouldn't sculpt curvy boob-and-butt plates for female Astartes.. Would they?

[Denzark]

Very fair again - although I wonder how many fans would be as you describe, how many are meh and how many FSM zealots there are.

[Durendin]

You could ask why only adolescents can be Space Marines? Perhaps Games Workshop are being deliberately age-ist along with their being sex-ist! I bet the Power Armour isn't made in a Carbon-Neutral way either!

Why are Space Marines all blokes? Because the writers wrote it that way, pure and simple. They didn't feel the need to fulfil a minority political agenda or cow-tow to some specific social-engineering programme of inclusiveness. Instead they simply put together a back-story with some specifics that aren't really worth mulling over. This back-story has worked well enough to push 40K to the success it has become and Games Workshop are unlikely to want to change this lest they kill the goose...!

[Cpt Codpiece]

fluff wise, isnt it all down to the fact that they need adolescent boys, as they have not started to 'mature' or have not matured fully so they take the various implants and chemo therapy needed to create the astartes.

men have a void in the abdomen (where uor beer guts reside eventually) that thankfully women dont have as its taken up by the reproductive system (uterus grows to hold babies... duh ) they probably fill that void with the extra kidneys and what not.

but like fantomex said, even if there were female astartes, would we be to tell them apart form males? i dont think so.