Are Orks competitive?

[SandWyrm]

Its fairly easy to efficiently fill most of your HQ/troop/elite slots at a relatively low point level. Once you’ve peaked, however, any other points you spend aren’t going to contribute all THAT much to your army – a 1850-point Ork army isn’t all that much more effective compared to a 1500-point Ork army.

???

Sure, Orks can run out of slots pretty quickly if all they take are cheap units. But they can also take some very expensive units too! Like the 4 Battlewagon list I saw at 'Ard Boyz R2 with mega-armored Nobs inside. 4 units inside 4 vehicles at 2500 pts. I'd call that plenty competitive.

[SandWyrm]

I've read Chumbalaya's response to the posts, and I've got to say, I don't see him doing much chest beating. He certainly hasn't issued any proclaimations on himself being a TRUE 40K Master. In fact he's been clear that he's interested in hearing other peoples opinions on the subject, and pretty clear in politely stating his opinion.......so where exactly is this coming from?

Every single time Orks win in a tourney, the *****k crowd says one or both of the following:

1) Orks won, so the other players must have sucked (didn't mech up, whatever...).
2) Orks won, so the tourney must have been crap.

Both of which strike me as delusional. We don't play in a perfect little chess-like world of uber-lists, determinative die rolls, and master players. There's always going to be a spread of different luck, abilities, and pocketbooks at any tourney you go to. Likewise, some tourneys will have different focuses and TO abilities than others. That's life. That's the game we play.

Chumbalaya is being far more polite than *****k would be on this subject, and many kudos to him for that. He's a class act. But the undelying conceit is the same. And I think it's a strange denial of the objective reality.

[Commander Vimes]

On the subject of Tau.

We got hit in the face hard by 5th Edition. There are a few things that can work for us now, but it is very different than we used to function and the learning curve is like scaling a cliff. Most players haven't caught on to the fact that Fire Warriors are awful and Kroot are absolutely necessary. I swear I'm the only Tau player in Colorado who focuses on Kroot and I'm also pretty sure I'm the only one who wins more than I lose. Tau are solid because we can kill mech at range better than anyone else so the metagame favors us. We have a glaring problem with objectives though. It is very hard to shift a resilient unit like Plague Marines off an objective or to capture an objective in the open. We don't have a good resilient unit. Broadsides run if you kill the drones with alarming frequency and Kroot at ld7 make one check a game if I'm lucky. I win a lot of games against people because they see Tau and expect an easy win. They don't expect 60 Kroot, being bogged down by a Shas'O, or me holding everything in reserve until turn 5.

Overall I think Orks are superior, I like my Tau against anything but Nob Bikers, but the Orks have resilient scoring units and can force an enemy off an objective. One Rhino tank shocking won't knock them off the objective. That said, I think there are some good points to be made that the Ork Codex is overrated. Orks are predictable and they have obvious weaknesses to exploit. I think that their dominance on the tournament scene will gradually recede.

[mercer]

(it's codices, not "codii"-- that isn't a word)

Regardless, however, I actually dispute the claim that they aren't competitive, or even that they have a disadvantage. They have a different style, at most-- the style itself is not a disadvantage.

I have to respectfully disagree with you Melissa. Orks don't have any reliable anti tank, against armour 14 they especially struggle. They have power klaws and dread mobs, but they need to get up close and personal. Only other things are rokkits, which can only penetrate armour 14 and other armour becomes tougher, and on BS2 as well? Lootas are good for light armoured vehicles, armour 12 really.

Another disadvantage is transport. You have the battlewagon as dedicated transport for nobz and meganobz, thats ok. But anything else in the elite slot forget about it - foot slogging burnas? The battlewagon can be taken as a transport, but you only get three of them as its heavy support and the looted wagon isn't good with the special rule as its uncontrolable. Sure boyz get trukks, but honestly 12 in a trukk when orks need numbers - loose a few orks and that fearless is out the window. Also 35 points for a open topped armour 10 all the way around fast vehicle isn't that good. Sure you move quicker, the its got the same protection as a wet paper bag.

Those IMO are a disadvantage for orks, especially if your trying to take a mech list as trukks aren't a good transport and battlewagons eat through heavy support choices. Fixes would be a stronger trukk, perhaps armour 12 at the front and then 10 on the side and rear. Allow other units to take trukks, and also battlewagons as dedicated support for boyz - though same rule about the killkannon as for nobz and meganobz.

[The Green Git]

Every single time Orks win in a tourney, the *****k crowd says one or both of the following:

1) Orks won, so the other players must have sucked (didn't mech up, whatever...).
2) Orks won, so the tourney must have been crap.

Both of which strike me as delusional. We don't play in a perfect little chess-like world of uber-lists, determinative die rolls, and master players. There's always going to be a spread of different luck, abilities, and pocketbooks at any tourney you go to. Likewise, some tourneys will have different focuses and TO abilities than others. That's life. That's the game we play.

Chumbalaya is being far more polite than *****k would be on this subject, and many kudos to him for that. He's a class act. But the undelying conceit is the same. And I think it's a strange denial of the objective reality.

Now now... don't go clouding the issue with facts. Teh Innerwebz sez Orks are the Suxx0rs so it must be true.

Of course The Internet does not seem to hold sway around here, since Orks win a lot of games and tourneys.

[Melissia]

I have to respectfully disagree with you Melissa. Orks don't have any reliable anti tank, against armour 14 they especially struggle. They have power klaws and dread mobs, but they need to get up close and personal. Only other things are rokkits, which can only penetrate armour 14 and other armour becomes tougher, and on BS2 as well? Lootas are good for light armoured vehicles, armour 12 really.

AV14 all around is always very expensive. Most vehicles can easillyb e popped by a power klaw if they prove to be troublesome. I once saw an entire squadron of Leman Russ tanks destroyed in one round of assault by a Boyz squad.

The battlewagon can be taken as a transport, but you only get three of them as its heavy support and the looted wagon isn't good with the special rule as its uncontrolable.

So why take the looted wagon? Take the battlewagon instead.

And let's face it, no matter what the theorycrafting says, Orks still win. Consistently.

[Chumbalaya]

I try not to go along with the internet's prevailing sentiment, or at least question it before making my own call. According to the internet, JotWW is overpowered, Codex Creep exists, and Orks are competitive. I don't buy any of that.

A PK does not pop AV14 consistently, unless it's a charging Warboss against a static Land Raider and even that isn't a gimme.

Warboss vs immobile AV14 = .67 destroyed results
vs LR moving 6" = .33 destroyed
vs LR moving 12" = .11

And that's the best chance Orks have of nailing AV14, besides Deff Rollas and lucky Zzap/SAG hits.

I've had my Warboss blow up an entire Russ squadron on his own too, all 3 tanks. My opponent did not move them, squadron'd them in the first place, and the rear armor is 10. Does that mean that Warbosses are the ultimate AV14 destroyers, or that my opponent played like a chump? I'm thinking the latter. If he had moved 12", I may have destroyed 1 tank, then the rest of the squadron would be free to destroy my clumped up mob next turn.

I don't know where the disconnect is. Most times I see Orks winning tournies, it's a soft score fest or the competition is still an edition behind, that or the guy running Orks is really good. I guess it depends on what one would consider competitive. If it's just winning tournies, regardless of how inconsistent and uncompetitive they are, then I guess Orks would qualify. I don't go for the lowest common denominator. Any army run by a good player can tear apart a poor player's army, that doesn't make the army good, just the player. Any army can win overall if soft scores account for 60% of it, doesn't mean they're good either, just pretty and run by a nice fella.

[mercer]

AV14 all around is always very expensive. Most vehicles can easillyb e popped by a power klaw if they prove to be troublesome. I once saw an entire squadron of Leman Russ tanks destroyed in one round of assault by a Boyz squad.

So why take the looted wagon? Take the battlewagon instead.

And let's face it, no matter what the theorycrafting says, Orks still win. Consistently.

Its expensive for a reason, but with its expensive or not isn't the point. The point is orks can't crack it. Vehicles can be popped by power klaws, armour 14 can't, easily. Well I have no doubts that a entire ork mob destroyed a squadron of leman russ as they are not armour 14 on the rear, and tanks are weaker in squadons so thats easily done. The leman russ example doesn't go for armour 14. Nobz on the charge will need a 5+ to pen a a warboss a 4+, you're hoping that a few models can do the job. You haven't got enough claws for the job. So, unfortunately armour is a problem for the reasons I mentioned, ranged more than close combat.

Thats my point about the looted wagon - it has **** rules narrowing transport options down to 2, and for 90 points the battlewagon is kind of expensive. It wants to be a land raider, at a points cost and other costs.

Orks may still win, at tournaments. But tournaments appear still to be using lash, nob bikers and other stuff from yester-year. How the game is starting to change with mech armies yester-years lists struggle, such as orks. So, yeah, they win and I'm not arguing about that. I'm saying against mech armies more than anything orks have a tough time.

Chumby I've just read your post and its a mirror image of mine. How does a S9 nob wreck a land raider, hell a S10 boss doesn't have much chance (thanks for the mathammer). Leman russes in a squadron and rear armour 10 and keeping them still, bah deserves to get his tanks wrecked lol. Guy who I usually play against worked this out half way through the game and kept moving tanks so I at least hit on a 4+. Just common and simple tactics, should be common knowledge really.

The problem is, mainly, the competition is a edition behind, lash and nob bikers along with nid swarms are still for the win. Take the new mech lists and lash can't do nothing and others are no where near as affective.

[DarkLink]

I try not to go along with the internet's prevailing sentiment, or at least question it before making my own call. According to the internet, JotWW is overpowered, Codex Creep exists, and Orks are competitive. I don't buy any of that.

A PK does not pop AV14 consistently, unless it's a charging Warboss against a static Land Raider and even that isn't a gimme.

Warboss vs immobile AV14 = .67 destroyed results
vs LR moving 6" = .33 destroyed
vs LR moving 12" = .11

And that's the best chance Orks have of nailing AV14, besides Deff Rollas and lucky Zzap/SAG hits.

I've had my Warboss blow up an entire Russ squadron on his own too, all 3 tanks. My opponent did not move them, squadron'd them in the first place, and the rear armor is 10. Does that mean that Warbosses are the ultimate AV14 destroyers, or that my opponent played like a chump? I'm thinking the latter. If he had moved 12", I may have destroyed 1 tank, then the rest of the squadron would be free to destroy my clumped up mob next turn.

I don't know where the disconnect is. Most times I see Orks winning tournies, it's a soft score fest or the competition is still an edition behind, that or the guy running Orks is really good. I guess it depends on what one would consider competitive. If it's just winning tournies, regardless of how inconsistent and uncompetitive they are, then I guess Orks would qualify. I don't go for the lowest common denominator. Any army run by a good player can tear apart a poor player's army, that doesn't make the army good, just the player. Any army can win overall if soft scores account for 60% of it, doesn't mean they're good either, just pretty and run by a nice fella.

I don't think too many people will argue that Orks are good at killing LR's. But this is a case of knowing when to ignore a unit (like ignoring a monolith to go for phase-out with necrons).

As a Grey Knight player, the only way for me to mechanize is to take Land Raiders. My 1000pt list has 2 Land raiders, a Brother Captain and two 6 man Grey Knight squads. My 1500 pts list has 3 Land Raiders, 5 Terminators and 2 8man Grey Knight squads.

Sure, and ork player might not be able to blow up my transports very well, but if I ever hop out of the LR's (or if he does manage to pop one), I have so few models that I'll be swarmed quickly. It's not an auto win for the orks, but taking LR's aren't an auto-win for me, either, because of how many points those LR's take up.


On a side note, one of my favorite games I've played was my 1000pt list (mentioned above) against an ork horde. IIRC, he had 30 grots, 20 Storm Boyz, a 30 and a 20 Boy mob and a Warboss on a bike. 101 models, against my 15. It was a great game, him trying to get through my LR's (he blew one up) and me trying to kill his overwhelming numbers. Game ended with me winning. I had a LR and my Brother Captain left, he had about 10 ork boyz and a nob left.

[Chumbalaya]

You can ignore a Monolith because it doesn't do much damage and you can Phase it out. Land Raiders have a lot more guns, more dangerous guns, and generally have dangerous units inside. Since the vehicle can more or less run around with impunity, it can maneuver to get in the best position and smash their units one by one. Since you have the vehicle, you have the initiative and he is forced to react, which is never a good thing.