New codex is in. What do you think of it?

[Learn2Eel]

answered in read

In short using gimmicks to get round botched rules just illustrates my point for me.

They made a design decision that Slaanesh should get Feel No Pain, just accept it dude. The main part of Nurgle armies still get Feel No Pain anyway. It might seem stupid but even age-old Death Guard mates of mine don't mind the change at all. Bikes also do not all have power weapons/fists and are not in terminator armour, so its not like you are actually doing the same thing.

I think it is intentional, but it is just silly. I never ran combi-spam terminators myself, but I know a lot of Chaos players definitely did, and being forced to count their combi-weapons as combi-bolters or, worse yet, rip off the arms is bad.

I think what he was referring to was options outside of just daemon weapons. In that sense, we got stuff like the Burning Brand, the Scrolls of Magnus, the Murder Sword, etc. The lack of daemon weapons hurts but we've gotten what would probably be called more interesting and unique options instead. The Black Mace isn't AP2, but it will still force a lot of saves; fleshbane makes it a potent monstrous-creature hunting weapon. Whilst not as good as the old Plaguebearer, in that sense, you aren't restricted to Nurgle with it. Not that I disagree with you, I wish there were more daemon weapons.

I don't really have a problem with the Obliterator changes, it's a nerf by losing Fearless but how often will they realistically run off the table if you are using them properly? They aren't meant to sit back and sit in your back-field, they become exponentially more dangerous the closer they get and that has always been the best use of them. In that sense, if they fail a leadership test, they shouldn't run off the board. And even then, being such a small-model unit, it's rare they will fail one anyway. IMO I weigh it up like this - 5 points cheaper for the loss of Fearless and a point of leadership and using the same weapon in consecutive turns but gained Assault Cannons and for a point more than they used to be they can be T5. Considering what usually kills Obliterators is S8-9 AP2 weaponry, that's a big buff in that sense IMO.

3" is fine for a breathing space usually I think you will find, all you really need to do is have part of the base touching that 3" circle. You should easily be able to get around friendly models like that. The only times I'd be worried are in big combats with 20+ models, but how often do those happen nowadays given that units will almost always be cut down at least partially by shooting? And even then, with the pile in rules, as long as your models weren't really spread out when you charged, again there shouldn't be a massive problem getting to the side or behind them.

[daboarder]

3" is fine for a breathing space usually I think you will find, all you really need to do is have part of the base touching that 3" circle. You should easily be able to get around friendly models like that. The only times I'd be worried are in big combats with 20+ models, but how often do those happen nowadays given that units will almost always be cut down at least partially by shooting? And even then, with the pile in rules, as long as your models weren't really spread out when you charged, again there shouldn't be a massive problem getting to the side or behind them.

either you don't play much or you don't read the rules.

within 3' of your base but 1' away form the enemy, good luck

and why teh hell is everything now referred to as SPAM this SPAM that, just because some fool was taking one unit over and over again does that justify such arbitary sweeps? of course not. If you really believe it did you'd be never running the same unit twice or playing with gimpy WD lists.

could you people please stop using silly arguments that were never raised untill you needed to justify stupid changes to yourselves


/rant

[Learn2Eel]

I do play much, and I do read the rules. 3" is fine. It isn't perfect but it will be enough for most occasions.
Seriously, how often do you run into a massive melee?

[daboarder]

I do play much, and I do read the rules. 3" is fine. It isn't perfect but it will be enough for most occasions.
Seriously, how often do you run into a massive melee?

no its not, it really isn't or were you running the character on the edge of the unit in an edition where that gets him dead. This rule is going to cause a huge amount of crap and fan action after people see their characters killing themselves like clockwork roughly every 6 or so games.

let me elaborate, if there is 2 enemy models deep or three of your own around your unit (and using the correct pile in and assault moment there likely will be as it means yours and your enemy models are further spread out) your lord is DEAD!

[Learn2Eel]

I place characters tactically when considering all options. The middle of the unit seems obvious but it isn't always. If you know your opponent can't really get around your flanks, putting the sergeant at the back of the unit works fine too.
When you pile in, you move in closer to your enemy, correct? That either means your unit is thinning out to get into base to base contact with a spread out unit as you have to attempt to get into base to base, or they bubble wrap and move around. In the second scenario, for a 10 man unit of Chaos Marines, that would mean there would probably be like 4 guys at the front, the sergeant behind them with two guys, then two more on each flank trying to get into base to base. You don't pile-in into your own models unless it is the shortest way to get into base-to-base. That leaves more than enough room for you to get out.

Pretty much every melee I've seen that doesn't involve a lot of models would justifiably have more than enough room to accomodate a Spawn/Prince result. And if you are worried about it when you charge, put the champion in a place that would better accomodate that. Just because you have to think about something does not mean it is bad. Hence why in bigger games a Daemon Prince can still work with the right tools - you can't rush up blindly with him, but if you are careful and pick your engagements, he will kill stuff like no tomorrow. A lot of Grey Knights units aren't as threatening when he kills all of them before they attack him, and the ones that survive hit him on 5s with re-rolls of 1s and wound on 5s with re-rolls of 1s unless they use Hammerhand which then prevents them from using their force weapons. Just don't run wildly into Draigo, but you wouldn't have done that in the last edition anyway. Not that he is the best option, mind you.

[daboarder]

just pick up the bases and play around, you'll see what I mean if you don't fool yourself and introduce bias into the experiment.

[Bean]

no its not, it really isn't or were you running the character on the edge of the unit in an edition where that gets him dead. This rule is going to cause a huge amount of crap and fan action after people see their characters killing themselves like clockwork roughly every 6 or so games.

let me elaborate, if there is 2 enemy models deep or three of your own around your unit (and using the correct pile in and assault moment there likely will be as it means yours and your enemy models are further spread out) your lord is DEAD!

While I generally agree with you that the rule should be a little more forgiving, it's worth noting that a 25mm base is actually a little under an inch. It actually takes a four-model ring to prevent the champion from being placed within 3" of his original position. I think this is the scenario you're proposing:

MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMCMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM

In this particular instance, the champion actually has lots of places he can go--since each model is just under an inch wide. For instance, you can do this:

MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMM--MMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
----- DP

No worries. So, it does actually take an incredibly massive fight with the champion right in the middle to leave him without a legal position.

[daboarder]

they are not going to stay in those nicely ordered B2B positions in a real game or as soon as they have to pile in.

and the enemy models count as extra as you cannot be within 1' of them.

[Learn2Eel]

just pick up the bases and play around, you'll see what I mean if you don't fool yourself and introduce bias into the experiment.

Introduce bias into the experiment? Give me a break. As Bean points out, even if you are in the middle of a squad, you will still have room to move. In a 10-man unit, three wide, you can put the Daemon Prince on either side as you will still be touching the 3" bubble. If the unit is wider across, that would inevitably mean you would be able to get out backwards. The only times you will ever really have an issue are in big melees or when your unit is surrounded.

And your point on pile-in and real positions is also funny as by nature of piling-in they will be moving up and around, giving the champion more room to move in the arc behind him.

It might be a bit unforgiving but it is hardly the instant-death event you are making it out to be. You will be able to place the model most of the time.

[Kirsten]

daboarder you seriously need to chill the frak out and stop being so rude