Refusing a challenge: a fundemental change in the challenge mechanic

[mountaincycle661]

First, an example scenario (see the picture below):

A squad of space marines led by a captain and a sergeant charge into a squad of thousand sons led by a sorceror HQ and an aspiring champion. The captain issues a challenge. For this example, lets just assume that the whole "must accept/deny challenges" thing in the new CSM dex is not actually at play here. These are just some neat models I could use for an example I had laying around.

Interpretation one:

The thousand sons player has two options: accept the challenge with one of his characters, or deny it. Lets assume in this instance, the thousand sons player does NOT want to lose his character(s) to the captains lightning claw, and so denies the challenge. Page 64, Refusing a Challenge, paragraph 1, sentence 1 - "Alternatively, you can simply refuse the challenge and choose to have your character slink away with sullied honour but beating heart. If you refuse, your opponent gets to nominate one of your characters from those that could have accepted. The chosen model cannot strike blows at all this turn.....his leadership cannont be used by the rest of the unit for the remainder of the phase.

Once a challenge has been refused, the model that issued it fights normally.

So, the thousand sons player refuses the challenge, and the ultramarine player picks the HQ Sorceror (the more badass of the 2 characters) to be forced to not participate in this fight. After which, the captain fights normally and the challenging shennanigans are over. 1 issued challenge, 1 denial of said challenge, thats it.

Interpretation 2


<Skull> issues a challenge to a unit with the following characters <Smiley>, <Cries>, <Eek> with cannon fodder making up the rest of the unit.
(changed from emotocons to <word> because apparently you can only have 10 images in a post and emotocons count as images...pffft)

taken from page 64
"You'll now have to wait and see whether a character amongst the enemy ranks chooses to step forwards and accept the challenge."

and for this example we will call the player that controls <Skull> as Bill and the player that controls <Eek> <Smiley> and <Cries> as Ted.

only *characters* who can fight or strike blows may qualify to accept a challenge.

"if your opponent has issued a challenge, you can now accept it - nominate one of the characters in your unit to be the challengee" "your opponent has probably decided which of your characters he wants to fight...but the final choice is yours- he can't challenge a specific enemy, he just issues a challenge to the foe at large and sees who steps forwards"

1)Bill's character <Skull> issues a challenge to Ted's characters who qualify to accept a challenge: <Eek> <Smiley> <Cries>
2)Despite Bill's bias, Ted gets to select which one of his characters responds to the challenge <Eek> <Smiley> or <Cries>

You can accept the challenge or Refuse a challenge.
"you can simply refuse the challenge and choose to have your character slink away with sullied honour but beating heart(s)"

3)Ted chooses <Cries> to respond to the challege. And Ted decides that <Cries> refuses the challenge.

"If you refuse, your opponent gets to nominate one of your characters from those that could have accepted."
Ted decides that <Cries> is a wus and refuses the challenge. That is a *character* from that unit to which a challenge was directed. The benefit being that Ted is able to pull out a character, <Cries> , that he may not want to strategically risk. But, since there is no honor in not fighting there is a penelty for that benefit.

4) Bill chooses <Eek> -from <Cries> and <Eek>, the characters who could have been selected to respond the challenge that are remaining after Ted pulled <Cries> out from the fight.

"The chosen model cannot strike blows at all this turn" "furthermore, his leadership cannot be used by the rest of the unit for the remainder of the phase"

The model that Bill has chosen, <Eek> , cannot strike blows at all this turn nor can any in the unit benefit from that chosen character.
So, effectively, 2 characters (and the unit) are penalized:

a) the character that Ted chose to remove from the challenge via refusing
b) the character that Bill choses to nominate
c) the unit who no longer gets the benefit of leadership from either charater (one is basically nuetralized and the other is taken off gaurd by being chosen by the challenging character)

5) Once the challenge has been refused, the model that issued it fights normally

- there is no base-to-base duel
- <Cries> , chosen by Ted, is done for that phase - nuetralized
- <Eek> , chosen by Bill, is cannot strike for that turn
- the rest of Ted's unit do not gain from leadership
- fighting as normal continues

also, notice that Heroic stance says "A unit that consists only of a single character cannot refuse a chllenge. He's got nowhere to hide" which implies that he can't hide behind others to take on his fight.

[DarkLink]

Are you asking a question? Proposing tactics or rules changes? I'm not sure what your post is about.

Either way, there is nothing to interpret. The rules for challenges are pretty clear. I will also add that the new Chaos codex requires all their characters with the Champion of Chaos rule to accept all challenges, and they must always issue challenges, so using Chaos characters in this example is a poor choice.

[Aegwymourn]

I am also confused. Your first example is a fairly straightforward use of the challenge mechanic. In you second are you suggesting that you would instead lose two characters from fighting rather than one?

[Tynskel]

Oi!

[inquisitorsog]

"Alternatively" is a pretty powerful word. It means that if that which proceeds does not occur, then that which follows does occur. If that which proceeds does occur, then that which follows does not occur. There is no combination in which both occur or in which neither occurs.

You accept a challenge, alternatively, you refuse a challenge.

[Bellumvinco]

Mountain, if one of your characters accepts the challenge, the challenge is accepted. The other isn't considered to have refused becuase the challenge was accepted, so he fights normally, with the rest of the unit, while the one that accepted the challenge is locked in the challenge bubble.

[Maine]

Your second interpretation is incorrect.

You either accept the challenge by choosing a character to fight the challenge, or you refuse the challenge by not selecting a character to fight. You do not select a character to refuse - selecting is accepting, refusing is not selecting.