Queston about Typhus, challenges and Destroyer Hive.

[Daemonette666]

Question for everyone about Typhus.

If he is locked in close combat - in a challenge, can I elect to just defend against the other champions attacks, but not deliver any attacks myself. Instead, I use the destroyer hive to attack the enemy champion, and if any enemy troops who are also in the same combat are within the large blast marker, then oops. I would have to be careful not to use it when I have my own units with me, or have friendly units that will not at least get a invul or FNP save.

Does this sound legal. I feel it is abusing the rules a little. Does Typhus have to strike blows at his opponent while fighting a challenge?

I looked at Typhus trying to work out the Zombie issue, and saw this. Another possible stupid rule interpretation that needs FAQing.

I know it might be feasible, but imagine this: Typhus is the only model left and the enemy charge into him. He declares a challenge, and the enemy accepts. He takes the attacks from an enemy lord or sergeant. and passes them using his 2+ armour and FNP. He then at the initiative 1 phase uses his destroyer hive to attack every model friend or enemy (except himself) and hits the other champion, and 10 other space marines who then take strength 4 hits AP2. I could on average kill 5 of the marines, and wound the other champion, providing I survive the close combat strikes from the enemy champ.

What do you think? Is it legal? Is it stupid?

I think it might be legal, but bending the rules a bit, and a risky tactic.

[Learn2Eel]

Question for everyone about Typhus.

If he is locked in close combat - in a challenge, can I elect to just defend against the other champions attacks, but not deliver any attacks myself. Instead, I use the destroyer hive to attack the enemy champion, and if any enemy troops who are also in the same combat are within the large blast marker, then oops. I would have to be careful not to use it when I have my own units with me, or have friendly units that will not at least get a invul or FNP save.

Does this sound legal. I feel it is abusing the rules a little. Does Typhus have to strike blows at his opponent while fighting a challenge?

I looked at Typhus trying to work out the Zombie issue, and saw this. Another possible stupid rule interpretation that needs FAQing.

I know it might be feasible, but imagine this: Typhus is the only model left and the enemy charge into him. He declares a challenge, and the enemy accepts. He takes the attacks from an enemy lord or sergeant. and passes them using his 2+ armour and FNP. He then at the initiative 1 phase uses his destroyer hive to attack every model friend or enemy (except himself) and hits the other champion, and 10 other space marines who then take strength 4 hits AP2. I could on average kill 5 of the marines, and wound the other champion, providing I survive the close combat strikes from the enemy champ.

What do you think? Is it legal? Is it stupid?

I think it might be legal, but bending the rules a bit, and a risky tactic.

As far as I can tell, it is legal. There's nothing saying you must strike blows in a challenge; if you have wargear (such as a Tesseract Labyrinth) that prevents you from attacking in exchange for using its effects, you can still use that in a challenge.
I'll check the wound allocation rules for challenges though.

Nope, there's nothing in the BRB saying wounds can't be allocated to models outside of the challenge. Whilst you are considered to only be in base to base with the other challenger and thus they take the wounds first, and they can't make Look Out Sir! attempts, a blast weapon such as Typhus can still affect other models in the combat as base-to-base contact is not required.
Expect an FAQ on this pretty quickly.

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

The only thing I am seeing that is incorrect actually makes it a little more cheesy on your part. The Destroyer Hive is used at the start of his initiative step...Typhus's initiative is 5! Typhus only goes at initiative 1 when he is attacking with Manreaper, if he doesnt use it then he isnt affected by the Unwieldy rule.

[Learn2Eel]

The only thing I am seeing that is incorrect actually makes it a little more cheesy on your part. The Destroyer Hive is used at the start of his initiative step...Typhus's initiative is 5! Typhus only goes at initiative 1 when he is attacking with Manreaper, if he doesnt use it then he isnt affected by the Unwieldy rule.

That is a very good observation. It does say "in lieu of his normal attacks" which would imply using the Manreaper, but yeah, I5 it appears to be. Ouch.
Killing half a squad of Terminators before they get to attack?

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

Not quite as horrifically OP as a Daemon Prince with a Black Mace...but still quite tasty!

DP with Black Mace btw is broken because he is a monstrous creature so he has the smash rule, which says all of his close combat attacks are AP2 unless they are AP1. So he has 5 attacks base, 6 when charging, plus 1-6 from the black mace. He will hit almost anyone in the game on 3's, wound on 2's since it is fleshbane, all at AP2! If they survive they have to make a toughness test or be removed as a casualty (*important note - this is Curse not instant death, Eternal Warrior will not defend against this [on the same page Murder Sword has the Instant Death rule - this shows that the two are not the same]). If you manage to kill a single model, anyone within 3" has to take a toughness test or take a wound with no saves of any kind allowed. (That means armor, cover, or invulnerable)

[Learn2Eel]

You do pay the price for that daemon prince though, so I think it balances out. Incredibly nasty thoug. If you can get it into combat (wings) it should demolish nearly anything in the game, even AV14. 3 attacks when 'Smashing' plus charge bonus plus D6 from the Black Mace. Yowza.

I'll try it out when I actually get to play some games with the codex!

[Wildcard]

We encountered similar problem on our last game: The issue is if any wounds can "escape from or into duel"

The skills in question were cleansing flame from purifiers and zone of banishment from Stern. Destroyer hive and other similar skills that affect area, or all models in combat were brought up as well..


But wasn't it so, that no wounds can be caused outside from duel nor the other way around? something along the lines: wounds cannot be allocated into or outside of challenge. And while those wounds originate from the duel...

[inquisitorsog]

to be technical about it, the only thing the RAW say for challenges is that the challenge combatants are considered in B2B only with one another. There's not a word that I see about the challenge combatants being unable to affect anyone else. I have to assume that means the designers intended it that way and only that way.

For Typhus, it says "any Assault phase" Emphasis: ANY. Until it's ruled otherwise by the designers, a TO, or house rules, I have to assume the designers also took into consideration that "any" included those assault phases Typhus is in a challenge. I can fully imagine Typhus pulling a dirty trick or two, right? So, he gets to challenge the other units champions and the get stinky about it.

This is a special rule so when in doubt, rule in favor of the special rule, not the general rule. I'd still say that he couldn't use this as an attack into a challenge he's not part of as the wording on that particular general rule is strong enough that it would take fairly strong indication on the special rule to override that.

That's the simplest RAW view for me. I almost expect errata/FAQ on it though.

[Learn2Eel]

to be technical about it, the only thing the RAW say for challenges is that the challenge combatants are considered in B2B only with one another. There's not a word that I see about the challenge combatants being unable to affect anyone else. I have to assume that means the designers intended it that way and only that way.

For Typhus, it says "any Assault phase" Emphasis: ANY. Until it's ruled otherwise by the designers, a TO, or house rules, I have to assume the designers also took into consideration that "any" included those assault phases Typhus is in a challenge. I can fully imagine Typhus pulling a dirty trick or two, right? So, he gets to challenge the other units champions and the get stinky about it.

This is a special rule so when in doubt, rule in favor of the special rule, not the general rule. I'd still say that he couldn't use this as an attack into a challenge he's not part of as the wording on that particular general rule is strong enough that it would take fairly strong indication on the special rule to override that.

That's the simplest RAW view for me. I almost expect errata/FAQ on it though.

I agree with this. The reason challengers can't allocate wounds to other models in a combat is because the challengers are considered to be in base to base only with each other. However, a large blast like Typhus' that affects every model it touches would supersede this.

[Daemonette666]

Much like a blast template that has scattered onto the close combat.

I would have to stipulate that he has to be in close combat with atleast one enemy model himself in order to use the destroyer hive ability, although he might not be the model actually fighting the challenge - the squad champion may have accepted on his behalf.