Chaos Woes - and thoughts on 6th

[Denzark]

Herewith. Not sure if this is tactics or discussion, so mods feel free. Having picked up my new codex, I ran the following, against a BA (drop) main/ GK allied list:

Kharn + 7 berzerkers, power sword in Daemon possessed LR.
15 x CSM, VOTLW, MOK, 2 x CCW, 2 x Melta (midfield squad)
15 x CSM, VOTLW, MOK, 2 x Plasma (hold backfield)
1 x Vindicator Daemon Possessed
1 x Heldrake

it was mission 2 - so basically kill points. And, following a schoolboy error splitting my forces, and an uncomfortable lesson from something called a GK brotherhood champion or somesuch (he did 1 attack for each person in btb, and was last man in his squad, so suddenly reamed 10 CSM over 2 turns.) I got smashed.

So, whilst I am now frantically trying to rethink my CSM, herewith some thoughts on 6th in no particular order:

1. Transports. Still worth it. I think the ability to prevent the enemy shooting at the squad for a turn is worth a potential loss of first blood. This is a better defence than redundancy from a big blob if you ask me. 3 x 10 man > 2 x 15 - can fire at 3 different things, can fit in transports.

2. Melta > plasma. For 5 points less, you can get AP1, S8, assault with the weapon. Actaully let me caveat. In a tactical type squad. Actually 4 in a squad of chosen gives a different dynamic but when you can take 2 only, take melta. You will be trying to close the range to 12 to get rapid fire anyway. More flexibility, stronger, and no gets hot outweighs 2 x shots at 24" with plasma.

3. Heldrake. Brittle. Turn 2 comes on and kills 9. Turn 3 kills 7. Turn 4, gets the entire load of a storm raven in its face and dies. Maybe needs pairs for redundancy.

4. After my point at 3 above, it occurs to me, unless you are a long range shooty army with a good alpha strike - GO SECOND. Hide stuff behind terrain, draw him to you for a turn. Use your incoming flyers to toast his. Don't let a flyer with awesome anti air (ie vendetta or storm raven) go second - it will eat your flyer and then storm up and down killing stuff.

5. Berzerkers. Just seem worse. I may run Kharn without berzerkers.

6. Chaos named character warlord traits. If they are not the warlord, do they/can they still use them? Are they automtically the warlord? What if I take Abaddon and Kharn, whose trait trumps?

7. CSM. You need to think carefully how to load these guys, its easy to make them v. expensive.

8. Points. I have been a staunch 1500 fan as a quick pick up, GW own tourney level. I think now with all the toys, and the destructive nature of the game in 6th, that 1750 is more realisitc and achievable in 2hrs if yuo are not facing a 'chess player'.

9. Flyers. Whilst it is still the case that some armies can only get anti air from allies/fortifications, I submit they are unbalanced. I will revisit when every army has access to anti air.

10. Don't split your forces! Especially against in your face jump troops. Links in to the inflexibility of 15 man blobs - MSUs - who to engage decisively?

11. Spit on all necron players.

12. 11 above was a joke.


Hope that is of interest, thoughts appreciated.

[DarkLink]

1. Losing your transport is a loss of first blood. But transports are still worth it. They're just not an auto-include. It's perfectly viable to go all foot. Personally, I've stuck to taking armies that don't have any easy targets (so no Rhinos), so I basically always get First Blood, which can mean that I only have to tie to win.

2. Situational. Plasma is still much better against units that you don't want to charge, like a large unit of Terminators. And plasma can reach out an touch someone, unlike melta.

6. You pick what dude's the warlord, and the warlord gets X trait. Not-the-warlords don't get to use their trait. That's the purpose of Abbadon's must-be-the-warlord rule.

8. All of my 6th ed experience has indicated that the game is slower now. If you want to fit in the same number of games you used to play, you'll have to drop the points.

9. Yup. And since the new CSM codex is still light on anti-air, with all anti-air options being very expensive, I see no reason to expect GW to understand that their flyer rules are stupid. Even with the expanded options, you will still struggle with Necron/IG flyer spam. Hopefully GW will limit the availability of flyers, as it's not too unreasonable to deal with 1-2 FMC/Flyers. It's only the flying circus spam lists that are dumb.

10. A lot of competitive players harp on about the advantages of MSU. MSU is a little more efficient offensively in the shooting phase. They forget, however, that MSU lack the advantage of concentration of mass, which is important both defensively and offensively in the assault phase. So while there is a mathmatical advantage to taking MSU, there's a different but roughly equal mathmatical advantage to taking big squads. Which is better depends a lot on your opponent.

12. Not a joke if they're playing an all-flyer army. Screw those jerks.

[Learn2Eel]

Herewith. Not sure if this is tactics or discussion, so mods feel free. Having picked up my new codex, I ran the following, against a BA (drop) main/ GK allied list:

Kharn + 7 berzerkers, power sword in Daemon possessed LR.
15 x CSM, VOTLW, MOK, 2 x CCW, 2 x Melta (midfield squad)
15 x CSM, VOTLW, MOK, 2 x Plasma (hold backfield)
1 x Vindicator Daemon Possessed
1 x Heldrake

it was mission 2 - so basically kill points. And, following a schoolboy error splitting my forces, and an uncomfortable lesson from something called a GK brotherhood champion or somesuch (he did 1 attack for each person in btb, and was last man in his squad, so suddenly reamed 10 CSM over 2 turns.) I got smashed.

So, whilst I am now frantically trying to rethink my CSM, herewith some thoughts on 6th in no particular order:

1. Transports. Still worth it. I think the ability to prevent the enemy shooting at the squad for a turn is worth a potential loss of first blood. This is a better defence than redundancy from a big blob if you ask me. 3 x 10 man > 2 x 15 - can fire at 3 different things, can fit in transports.

2. Melta > plasma. For 5 points less, you can get AP1, S8, assault with the weapon. Actaully let me caveat. In a tactical type squad. Actually 4 in a squad of chosen gives a different dynamic but when you can take 2 only, take melta. You will be trying to close the range to 12 to get rapid fire anyway. More flexibility, stronger, and no gets hot outweighs 2 x shots at 24" with plasma.

3. Heldrake. Brittle. Turn 2 comes on and kills 9. Turn 3 kills 7. Turn 4, gets the entire load of a storm raven in its face and dies. Maybe needs pairs for redundancy.

4. After my point at 3 above, it occurs to me, unless you are a long range shooty army with a good alpha strike - GO SECOND. Hide stuff behind terrain, draw him to you for a turn. Use your incoming flyers to toast his. Don't let a flyer with awesome anti air (ie vendetta or storm raven) go second - it will eat your flyer and then storm up and down killing stuff.

5. Berzerkers. Just seem worse. I may run Kharn without berzerkers.

6. Chaos named character warlord traits. If they are not the warlord, do they/can they still use them? Are they automtically the warlord? What if I take Abaddon and Kharn, whose trait trumps?

7. CSM. You need to think carefully how to load these guys, its easy to make them v. expensive.

8. Points. I have been a staunch 1500 fan as a quick pick up, GW own tourney level. I think now with all the toys, and the destructive nature of the game in 6th, that 1750 is more realisitc and achievable in 2hrs if yuo are not facing a 'chess player'.

9. Flyers. Whilst it is still the case that some armies can only get anti air from allies/fortifications, I submit they are unbalanced. I will revisit when every army has access to anti air.

10. Don't split your forces! Especially against in your face jump troops. Links in to the inflexibility of 15 man blobs - MSUs - who to engage decisively?

11. Spit on all necron players.

12. 11 above was a joke.


Hope that is of interest, thoughts appreciated.

1. Agreed, a rhino and a 10 man squad is usually a good bet. They never let me down.

2. I think Plasma has more versatility, especially if you don't want to get close to something (i.e. a Dreadknight). Melta more or less relies on short range conflict and the potential of being assaulted. In that sense, it depends on the unit. I run both in my normal Chaos Marine squads currently, and I find the diversity is great. The melta shot is basically there if I really need a vehicle-buster, so to speak, but in general I don't want to be wasting my bolters, hence why a plasma gun is worthwhile.

3. I don't think the Heldrake is brittle so much as a Stormraven/Vendetta will always eat any opposition flier when it comes on. Those two are the king of AA fliers and will make mince meat of any flier. Glad to see your Heldrake racked up a nice kill count.

4. I'm actually leaning towards this, especially given the small 4x4 boards at my LGS. Cover is never an issue, and my army lists tend not to give easy kill points and be short ranged anyway. In that sense, if you have units such as Daemon Princes, Bikers and Khorne Lords on Juggernaughts, Maulerfiends, etc, they can be charging on Turn 1 and causing horrible damage to your opponent. First Blood usually doesn't faze me, especially considering if I go second I can really limit their first turn shooting. This probably won't work in all games, mind you.

5. Cheaper, but a bit worse off. Frankly, I'd probably run Kharn with regular Chaos Marines, as silly as it sounds. They are cheaper, I don't have to worry about paying for an assault transport, and with a melta or plasma (9 man squad to fit in rhino) I can engage threats reliably before I get to charge. Also, having another character in the unit means you can palm off a challenge if you don't want to accept it with Kharn and have him kill the unit.

6. As mentioned, they have to be the Warlord themselves to grant that trait. If you take Ahriman and a Sorcerer Lord, you can't make the Sorcerer Lord your warlord and benefit from Ahriman's trait. It would also confuse your opponent - why would a Sorcerer Lord be a warlord over Ahriman?

7. Oh yes. For me, 10 man units (or 9 if I want to put a HQ in with them) with a melta/plasma in a rhino is a cheap, durable, flexible and mobile scoring unit.

8. Especially with this codex, I am struggling to fit in everything I want to put in, especially now that Fast Attack is one of our best slots too. Ideally, 1 HQ, 3 Troops, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support, but it is very difficult at 1500 unless I run Cultists as my Troops.

9. I'm in the same boat, though thankfully only one person in our store uses more than one flier at a time.

11. Ngawww the spess tomb kings are sad now Lol.

[DWest]

I've only played 4 games w/ the new Codex, but I've found Cultists w/ Mark of Tzeentch have a *ton* of staying power for the price. Also, Defilers: says "it will not die" on the tin, and that's just what it does. Survived 2 of 4 games, and the times it died were: Tau Crisis Commander lighting the beast up after having eaten 30 Kroot, 20 Fire Warriors, and 2 Broadsides, and then Grey Knights, but only because the Dreadknight pounced on it; the 2 Psyflemen and the stationary Strike Squad w/ 2 Psycannons only managed to take 2 Hull Points in 2 full rounds of shooting. Made better than his points by a margin in 3 of the 4 games as well. For 195 points, I'm sold.

[Learn2Eel]

I've only played 4 games w/ the new Codex, but I've found Cultists w/ Mark of Tzeentch have a *ton* of staying power for the price. Also, Defilers: says "it will not die" on the tin, and that's just what it does. Survived 2 of 4 games, and the times it died were: Tau Crisis Commander lighting the beast up after having eaten 30 Kroot, 20 Fire Warriors, and 2 Broadsides, and then Grey Knights, but only because the Dreadknight pounced on it; the 2 Psyflemen and the stationary Strike Squad w/ 2 Psycannons only managed to take 2 Hull Points in 2 full rounds of shooting. Made better than his points by a margin in 3 of the 4 games as well. For 195 points, I'm sold.

Woah. Deadly Defiler dashing dangerously!
Excusing my horrible attempt at alliteration, that is some pretty insane survivability going on there.

[OrksOrksOrks]

Anit Air is not a thing GW are going to ever care about, they don't expect there to be "flying circuses" because the game is supposed to be a fun, casual game, not played by WAAC *** holes who take lists like that. The easiest way to deal with lists like that is not to play terrible people.

[magickbk]

I've never been a fan of taking all big blobs. My theory is that you are better off taking one big blob that takes up way too many of your opponents resources to budge off the objectives, and other smaller units. That will force your opponent to split their forces to counter them all, or let the smaller ones through unmolested while they concentrate on your blob.

As for #8, I think the average points for games are going to up because every new Codex is going to have some expensive new toys that everyone is going to want to take, especially if they are shelling out $75 per model for them.

[eldargal]

This is the difference between BoLS and Warseer, on Warseer the OP would have read as:

Lost my first game with new CSM codex. Codex sucks, GW sucks, **** you GW I'm going to sell my army on eBay and go play Warmachine but I'll still post fifty posts a day whining about GW for the next ten years.

[DarkLink]

Next post would be:

Nuh-uh, I played my first game against Chaos and lost, they're the most broken WAAC cheese-fest army EVAR. Codex is broken, GW sucks, **** you GW I'm going to sell my army on eBay and go play Warmachine but I'll still post fifty posts a day whining about GW for the next ten years.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah, I prefer a happy medium:

Just lost/won my first game with the new codex. Awesome! Btw, has anyone heard of Warmachine? I think I'm going to buy a bunch of that game and play it also.