Invulnerable save not all that anymore?

[White Tiger88]

How do!

More rambling a from the festering pit of nonsense that is my mind I'm afraid!

In 6th Edition, I've started to see invulnerable saves fall slightly by the way side. Given the change to Power Weapons, and the advent of Look Out Sir! I've been finding it harder and harder to justify the points value of the Phase Shifter. In 5th, I loaded up on both those and Sempiternal Weaves. Now due to the two reasons above I find the 2+ save to be plenty good enough. Granted my heavy hitters have a glorious T5 which helps in HTH, but seeing as only Powerfists and Axes can ignore my save in fisticuffs, I am confident just dropping my Overlord into a bodyguard of Warscythe toting Lychguard.

But I'm digressing and getting too specific in terms of my army of choice.

To those others with access to a 2+ save, do you find this is enough, or do you feel my approach is just asking for a nasty old fisting/axing?

Those Fistings hurt man...........The axing not so much =/ I like my extra save even for the points it adds.

[BatMarine]

TH/SS terminators are unequivocally dealt with via mass shooting where I play. The use of ap2 just to drop to a 3++ isn't really worth it in our circles. We tend to use ap2 weapons for things that wouldn't just survive it anyways, like other terminators, sanguine guard, and that type of stuff

[Caitsidhe]

Sadly the only thing that really counts in this edition is massive firepower, i.e. the more DAKKA you have the better. While it is nice to force a invulnerable save rather than an armor save, the proliferation of Storm Shields (for some) has made it often better to just use target saturation. The cost of cheap shooters versus expensive Terminators coupled with the problems of assault in this edition always leads you back to just MORE shooting. So far as I can tell, Games Workshop defines "cinematic" as two opposing gun lines shooting each other for 2-3 hours until someone finally breaks. I know that sounds pessimistic but the more games played the more lists are evolving in that direction. I'm speaking of my own games and the games I observe others play. People use what works and slowly but surely discard that which doesn't.

Going back to the topic at hand:

1. Improving the invulnerable save of an HQ or Special Character is pointless if you have them in a big, sturdy unit. The "Look Out Sir" is far better than what you can buy. Surround your important guys with enough meat shields and you are fine against shooting. The only reason you would want to upgrade your Invulnerable save is if you plan on being in a lot of challenges or run in small units (or alone). Given that MOST people will evolve toward commanders sitting way back and commanding their big blobs of shooter and bringing shooting support, is doubt such people care much about their invulnerable save.

2. Upgrade the Invulnerable save on units (if you can do it) is also a tough call based on price. It isn't nearly so clear cut. There is ample firepower out there that goes STRAIGHT to the Invulnerable save so it can't hurt. However, I still think the vast majority of DAKKA which comes down like RAIN in this edition is going to tell the tale. Who cares if you have a 2+/3+ when the unit will be absorb over a 100 shots.

Terminators were a problem for me last Edition too because I could not fight them in close combat. I was already shooting them to death. Very little has changed for me except that I can put even MORE shots out now and get the added advantage of Overwatch and Biomancy/Slannesh Disciplines to make sure more of those shots wound. Think about it.