I come for help: Looking to write a tournament competitive CSM army. Details inside

[Learn2Eel]

I played an apocalypse game once back when I played Chaos where Kharn walked through a thousand points of stuff, and shrugged off a thousand points or so of firepower for multiple turns, including a few str D shots. It was pretty awesome.

I don't doubt you, Kharn is insane and as long as he stays away from certain units he will just keep on killing.

@Caitsidhe I agree with most of your post, however I disagree on your evaluation of the Maulerfiend. It is a very big model but the fact that it ignores cover and moves that quickly means it is very easy to just charge it straight into cover/hide it on the first turn. And that 5+ invulnerable save actually does make a huge difference, especially on an AV12 vehicle. I watched both the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend in action yesterday and the former tanked three lascannon shots through its invulnerable saves. When the former also had multiple overheats from the ectoplasm cannons, it either passed its invulnerable saves or passed its It Will Not Die rolls. If you are using Bikers or Raptors in conjunction with the Maulerfiend, you will have a very fast moving element to your army that is also quite dangerous. Maulerfiends are a priority target for anyone but their speed lets them abuse cover pretty well.

Oh, and here we go;

Fast Attack - without doubt the recipient of the 'most improved' award, this section of our codex stands strongly next to heavy support as being our most useful force organization slot. Competitive armies can and always should use some of the great Fast Attack selections on offer. Remember that my evaluations are based on other choices in the same slot of the codex.

Raptors - These guys are fantastic. For slightly more than a standard Chaos Marine, you have an extra attack base, a jump pack, cause Fear, and can have two special weapons at no minimum squad size requirement. Raptors can be made to fit a wide variety of roles - one is as a Deep Striking suicide unit that delivers the pain in the form of Meltaguns to enemy armour. Typically, for special weapons, I would not recommend the plasma guns as it means you are disallowed from charging if you use them - which can be a crippling factor if you do want to charge. Flamers are always a decent choice, but for Raptors, having the meltaguns will make you much more threatening to many other targets. They are also a good way to deliver a power fist. Their mobility means you can and should abuse cover with these guys if you can (typically by hiding behind it). They make for a good flanking or support unit, and are excellent as a counter-charge unit against more aggressive enemies.

Whilst causing Fear is nice and your Raptors come with it in their low base cost, it won't really work against most armies you face. However, it is great for non-Space Marine armies that you face; using Raptors as flanking units usually means you would get into combat with lower-leadership flanking units that would actually be quite vulnerable to Fear. Don't rely on it though. Marks aren't always what I would recommend, but Raptors get lots of benefits from them. If you are running said 5-man squad packed with dual meltaguns, the Mark of Nurgle seriously increases their durability for a relatively minimal cost. The Mark of Khorne is also obviously good, whilst Slaanesh is another good choice. Don't bother with Tzeentch - unless you already have an invulnerable save, it typically isn't worth it. Veterans of the Long War is ok if you need it. The icons are ultimately ok but not necessary - Feel No Pain is expensive and probably not as efficient as giving them the Mark of Nurgle would be; they already cause Fear so don't bother with the Nurgle icon; Soul Blaze is mediocre, and; having Furious Charge and re-rolling charge distances is actually quite nice, especially if you use your jump packs in the movement phase.

Raptors are a great way of delivering pain to both heavy vehicles and light infantry. Ultimately, whilst it seems I am indicating that they work best in small squads, bigger squads are hardly a bad option either. If you want to use them, I would recommend the Mark of Nurgle and dual meltaguns as well as maybe meltabombs on the aspiring champion. Overall, an excellent choice.

Chaos Bikers - In my opinion, Chaos Bikers are our second best Fast Attack choice. So far, I have used a three-man squad with two plasma guns in each game with the new codex that I have played, and I can never say that I am disappointed with them. For the minimum triple-digit cost, the unit packs a wallop of mobile firepower against a wide range of targets and is also quite durable. Just yesterday, my opponent prioritized them over other more dangerous targets with his Obliterators simply because they would be liable to kill the Obliterators if not dealt with rapidly. I'm not saying this is the best way to run Bikers, but it pretty much exemplifies how I see them - I would cap your squads at five, as these guys cannot be made scoring and become much easier and more obvious targets for nasty weaponry. That isn't to say you can't make said Biker squad work, but I find a smaller squad will do the job more efficiently. Two plasma guns or two meltaguns is probably preferrable - like Raptors, they can take two special weapons with no thought as to the squad size. Unlike Raptors, they can make more effective use of Plasma Guns as they are Relentless.

If you want to mark them, one stands quite clearly above the others - Nurgle. Does T6 Bikers sound nasty to you? Oh yeah it does. Just remember that this becomes very expensive very quickly if used on larger Bike squads. Slaanesh and Khorne are both good however, as it turns Bikers into a pretty decent assault unit for their points and mobility. Ignore Tzeentch - moreso than on other units. Bikers have a 5+ Jink save and usually die to shooting anyway. The other upgrades I have mentioned before, such as Veterans of the Long War and meltabombs, have practically the same use on Bikers as they would on Raptors. As for Icons, I would actually recommend Feel No Pain on this unit. T5 I5 Bikers with Feel No Pain is brutal, but expensive. You must also weigh up what you expect the unit to be shot at with - if you expect Boltguns, don't bother with Feel No Pain and take Nurgle instead. If you expect Plasma Guns or anything similar, take Feel No Pain. The Nurgle and Tzeentch icons are cheap but not really useful, but the Khorne icon is quite good - a 12" move not slowed by terrain, and then a potential 12" charge range that can re-roll charge distance. Not to mention Hammer of Wrath and S5 on the charge with Rage.

Bikers are similar to Raptors but should always be used as a flanking unit, whether Outflanking or just zipping up the table edges. I would recommend smaller squads with either two plasma guns or two meltaguns. Marks work well but aren't necessary to what you will probably want the Bikers to do. If your opponent ignores them, they have opened up a great opportunity for your Bikers to make their points back in short order. If your opponent focuses on them, you can shrug your shoulders as they either withstand the punishment or die - either way, for how cheap they are, you won't mind. An excellent choice overall.

Warp Talons - As cool as their models are, these guys give me a similar vibe as Mutilators. Raptors with a 5+ invulnerable save, paired lightning claws, a nice Blind attack on their Deep Strike sound great, especially if you look at their points cost and think how much said upgrades would cost on Raptors. The problem is, that is what also makes Warp Talons quite similar to Thousand Sons - ultimately, they are over-costed for what they do. Warp Talons have absolutely no means of dealing with vehicles, unless you get lucky when you charge a rear-AV10 vehicle. Whilst they will shred through non-TEQ infantry, Warp Talons die to Bolters just like any other Space Marine. And though their decent invulnerable save means they are quite survivable against things like power weapons, plasma guns and the like, Raptors can still get a similar cover save from shooting simply by using cover and also minimizing the number of targets that can see them. This is very much a unit that you must use to fit their specific purpose and make sure the rest of your army is able to deal with what they can't - in essence, they are a unit that you must make up for their faults to use effectively.

Warp Talons are expensive. There is no way around that. However, on the off chance they aren't dead already, they can charge and make their points back pretty well against other infantry. Marks are a good way to make them a lot more effective, but it will cost you even more. Nurgle makes them much less fragile against what will most likely be killing them. Tzeentch is funny if you go up against an opponent that has AP3 or lower in abundance, but ultimately not as useful as Nurgle. Khorne gives Warp Talons a crazy amount of attacks. Slaanesh means you will be able to do said slicing and dicing before MEQs get to strike back - which can make a big difference. However, the latter two marks rely on getting into close combat, and Warp Talons need a reliable way of getting there - hence why I would recommend Nurgle and Tzeentch. Unfortunately, marks are more expensive on these guys than for most other units in the codex. Also, as cool as their Deep Strike attack is, I wouldn't recommend it. Unless you are going up against Necrons and are out of range of their vehicles and can assure yourself little deep strike scatter (i.e. threading the needle) do not do it. They are simply too expensive a unit to lose to a mishap. Stick them to cover and either use them as a hidden counter-charge unit or jump them from building to building, avoiding making yourself a target for as long as possible before you strike. A mediocre choice overall.

Chaos Spawn - Once considered the worst unit in all of WH40K, they are now actually a decent unit. No more Slow and Purposeful, they are Beasts (12" move, Fleet, Move Through Cover), are Fearless, cause Fear, have Rage and have a decent statline. 3 wounds per model at T5 with no saves, also S5 with D6 attacks each turn and a random D3 ability rolled for each turn - either a 4+ armour save, Poisoned (4+) attacks, or roll 2D6 pick the highest for their attacks value. They are also the same cost as Warp Talons base. They have WS3 and I3 but you really don't need to worry about that. The funny thing is, as much as having no save at all (unless they roll to get the +4 armour save) might seem like they are fragile, being T5 and having 3 wounds a piece makes them far more durable against pretty much any firepower that would be directed at them than Warp Talons (except for S10 AP3/2/1, where Warp Talons actually get a save and don't worry about Instant Death). They may not hit as hard in combat, but they can actually threaten transports decently and can put out a surprising large number of attacks - D6+2 on the charge is great.

You can also mark these guys now. I wouldn't recommend Khorne as you already have Rage, and your high threat range means you are most likely to charge anyway. Tzeentch does give them a save (a bad one), but I wouldn't count on it. Slaanesh makes them strike at I4, which is good but generally the Chaos Spawn won't die at the hands of Tactical Marines. Nurgle is by far the best for these guys - T6, almost completely immune to instant death. And unlike Warp Talons, you really won't mind paying for the marks. Frankly, a unit of these guys is also (strangely) a very good bodyguard for a fast-moving Chaos Lord - if you run a Khorne Lord on a Juggernaught, or a Nurgle Biker Lord (or any other permutation), Chaos Spawn are what I would always recommend as the unit to attach to. They are durable, they are cheap for what they do, and they can do quite a bit of damage. They are also hellishly quick. Personally, I wouldn't run more than one unit of Chaos Spawn - I feel Raptors and Bikers will be more efficient, but Spawn are certainly no slouches either and are always a good option, especially for aforementioned fast moving HQs. A good choice overall.

Heldrake - Ah, the hellchick....er, heldrake, we meet at last! The Heldrake is a devastating unit - if used correctly and against the right opposition. As our only in-codex flyer, the Heldrake fills a rather unique role - as nasty as its offensive capabilities are, it is also a very reliable 'tank', meaning that it can quite easily soak up most of the damage that would target it. Hard to Hit, AV 12/12/10, 5+ invulnerable save, 5+ It Will Not Die, etc. It never has to Evade like other fliers and will not easily die to massed glancing hits. It is in the running for the most durable flyer in the game award and should be used accordingly - be aggressive with it, as your opponent will either be forced to ignore it or dedicate ridiculous amounts of firepower into its attempted destruction. Either way, it will typically make its points back the turn it comes on. I must strongly recommend the Baleflamer above the Hades Autocannon - whilst a S8 AP4 4-shot weapon sounds great, especially when hunting other flyers, the Heldrake has a mediocre BS and the weapon is not twin-linked. You also already have a Vector Strike resolved at S7 AP3, doing D3+1 automatic hits on any unit - including other fliers. The Baleflamer, on the other hand, is an even nastier flamestorm cannon mounted on a flyer that can be placed 12" away from the big bird and turned around for maximum devastation.

As awesome as the Heldrake sounds, and as inexpensive for what it does as it appears, I would never recommend running more than two. Heldrakes are still vehicles, as hard as they are to destroy due to being flyers and having an invulnerable save, they can still be destroyed quite easily by a lucky shot. Other fliers will probably win in an 'aerial duel'. As good as its cost is, it will still eat into your lists' points total quite quickly. Against entirely mechanized armies, they aren't all that useful. However, the Heldrake is lucky that footslogging or mixed foot/vehicle lists are the most common now. And in this sense, it is seen by some (perhaps justifiably) as the most dangerous anti-infantry unit in the entire game for the points. Don't bother with TEQs unless it is a big squad and you inflict a lot of wounds on them to force a number of saves in which they should fail one on average (i.e. if you cause 6 wounds). Flamestorm Cannons are already nasty enough as they are, especially on Baal Predators - no-one wants a S6 AP3 flamer burning their Space Marines alive with impunity. Less people want said Flamestorm Cannon mounted on a 36" moving flier with the Torrent rule - allowing it to be placed to maximize casualties.

Be prepared to wipe out almost entire squads (leaving one or two survivors on average if you hit an entire 10-man squad) and thus make your points back almost immediately - and that is on each turn it is on the table. The threat of a Heldrake is also quite obvious for any opponent - they might have fast-moving assault units, but be forced to think very carefully as it will mean the Heldrake can come on, flame them, and then on the next turn move further up and burn another squad. This is why I must stress the obvious - do not ever take more than two, as they are still nearly 200 point vehicles and will probably be the focus of most of your opponents shooting. The laughable thing is, the Heldrakes can withstand absurd amounts of punishment and are thus unlikely to be destroyed - if your opponent does shoot at them and does little, you can then grin as the rest of your army gets to move up unhindered and your Heldrakes keep the corpses rolling. Just be aware that this will more than likely be taken out by other fliers such as Vendettas and Storm Ravens and think about how you use the Heldrake carefully. The unit causes unparalleled devastation against foot-slogging non-TEQ army lists (which are in abundance nowadays), and is also scarily durable. Use it well and it could very well turn around entire games for you. An excellent choice overall.

Summary! All of the options bar Warp Talons are great choices - Raptors, Bikers and Heldrakes are all fantastic options, whilst Spawn can be very useful too. What you use your Fast Attack for is dependent on what you need - if you want fast-moving anti-tank or anti-TEQ, take Raptors or Bikers. If you want fast moving anti-infantry firepower, take the Heldrake.

[Learn2Eel]

Heavy Support - Our best force organisation slot in the last codex, and little has changed aside from our other slots getting noticeably better (particularly Fast Attack). If you want firepower, this is the place to be. Just note that the ridiculous number of competitive choices in this slot means you should think long and hard about what will work best for your army and, most importantly, what appeals to you most!

Predator - The humble Predator, as I like to refer to it, is a points efficient vehicle that is usually outshone by better choices. The Predator can be tailored to fit two specific roles - either strictly anti-tank, or strictly anti-infantry. I don't encourage a middle ground for Predators - they are cheap and durable, but you usually want them to focus on one specific kind of target so that they don't become ineffective. In this way, I really like how you can quite easily throw a single Predator into an army list and use it as the 'odd one out' kind of unit that will provide a nice fire-base. For anti-infantry, keep the autocannon and take heavy bolter sponsons - it won't threaten MEQs too much, but it is very effective against anything with a 4+ armour save or even, to a lesser degree, monstrous creatures. This build also provides a decent threat to light vehicles, such as Rhinos. For anti-tank, either keep the autocannon or take a twin-linked lascannon, and take lascannon sponsons. Ultimately, the decision on the turret-mounted weapon is one of how many points you are willing to spend. The anti-infantry build will run you under 100 points and the anti-tank build just over 100 points.

The problem with the Predator is that not only it is quite easily destroyed if an opponent can get at its side armour, it can only shoot one weapon at full BS if it moves. Given that Predators typically have three weapons, this creates an obvious issue of mobility, despite the background of Predators suggesting otherwise. As such, you really need to set it up in a good position so it can threaten targets from across the board whilst minimizing damage to itself. In this sense, the Predator can be a rather difficult vehicle to use effectively. It can be well worth it though - Predators are mightily cheap, and tend not to be perceived as an immediate threat for your opponent. Taking three of them is a viable strategy, but just be aware that unless you have other more dangerous units on the board, they will most likely be the recipient of all of your opponents anti-tank firepower. Front AV13 can only get you so far unfortunately. Kit them out for what you need, and you will rarely be disappointed - by that same token, you will rarely be mightily pleased either. As such, I rate them as a decent choice overall - not bad, not great.

One thing I almost forgot to touch on was vehicle upgrades - on a Predator, I usually wouldn't bother aside from maybe a Dozer Blade or Extra Armour. Do not get Daemonic Possession. As tempting as it is, a Predator already suffers from its weapons typically not being twin-linked - thus, reducing its BS is a bad idea.

Vindicator - My favourite Chaos Space Marine tank for quite a few reasons. Most notably, the S10 AP2 Ordnance pie plate from hell. I loved using these in 5th, and now in 6th, they are far more effective due to the changes to blast weapons - if even part of the large blast marker touches a vehicle, it will suffer a S10 AP2 hit rolling 2D6 pick the highest for amour penetration resolved against side armour. These things are almost unmatched as far as 'bunker-busters' and will make any castling opponent cry. Just be aware - they will be the biggest target the moment you put them on the board for deployment. As soon as opponents see these, they will immediately adapt a strategy based around "destroy the Vindicator before it fires". Common tactics involve pre-measuring to make sure that the Vindicator won't be in range on Turn 1, setting up flanking units or anti-tank to hopefully get at its weak side armour (AV 13/11/10, like a Predator), or even putting only sacrificial units in its range. Nothing draws fire quite like Vindicators do - no-one ever wants to be on the receiving end of one. As such, they are similar to the Predator in that you have to be very careful with them. Think about how you can minimize damage to them on turn 1 - especially if your opponent is going first - as well as the target most deserving of unholy punishment. Typically, this involves your opponents biggest vehicles, Terminators, transport formations, heavy weapon teams and their equivalents, T5 or lower multi-wound units, and so on. A Vindicator stands a very decent chance of punching through a Land Raider's armour - just remember that you only have a 1/3 chance of actually penetrating AV14.

One rule is to never forget the Ordnance rules - you always strike side armour against vehicles. This is especially relevant against Ork Battlewagons and Imperial Guard Leman Russes, which have strong front armour but weaker side armour. Also remember that cover saves can largely negate your shot. I also typically wouldn't recommend shooting at units on higher levels of buildings - if the shot scatters off, it will mean that it won't be able to hit anything else. Also, be very aware of your own units when shooting a Vindicator - as unlikely as it might seem that the shot would scatter off 12" diagonally down to your left and hit your squad of Terminators, it can and will happen. The Vindicator also benefits a lot - unlike the Predator - from the vehicle wargear section. Though you can take a Dozer Blade, for slightly more you can take a Siege Shield that will never let you down (you wouldn't believe how many times I've either rolled or seen others roll two 1s in a row), and much unlike the Predator, daemonic possession is a very good upgrade for the Vindicator. Ignoring Shaken/Stunned on a 2+ almost entirely negates the most common strategy of dealing with Vindicators - i.e. neutralizing it for a turn. Daemonically possessed Vindicators are only slightly less scary than Blood Angels Vindicators, and in some cases, they are even more frightening. A pair of them is sure to make many opponents poop out bricks.

If you want to use a Vindicator, be aware that one weapon destroyed result can make it almost useless. Immobilizing it also effectively screws it over - a siege shield or dozer blade is mandatory! There are ways around this though - the first is to stick a combi-bolter on the Vindicator and pray your opponent gets the result they really don't want. The other is to get a Warpsmith - your opponent will be forced to focus on actually destroying the Vindicators once they realize a Warpsmith can grow the Vindicators' gun back on a 4+. Overall, the Vindicator is a good choice - but I recommend running them in pairs. One is too easy a target, and three is just overkill.

Land Raider - As much as Land Raiders are awesome, the sad and unfortunate truth is that Chaos gets the worst kind of codex Land Raider. Chaos are best using Land Raiders as assault transports, but ironically they don't get the two variants that are actually very good in this role - the Crusader and Redeemer. The one we get is the 'bunker' Land Raider - designed to sit back and provide long-range fire support. The Loyalist versions of this Land Raider actually benefit from having Power of the Machine Spirit - hence, their long-range firepower isn't wasted as they can continue to fire two weapons at full BS on the move. Our Land Raider, of course, does not have this benefit. That isn't to say it won't work, but it really is a crippling oversight that hangs over the unit. However, enough of that and on to the good stuff. AV14 all around, 4 hull points - the Land Raider is probably the most durable vehicle in the entire game. It comes with two twin-linked lascannons and a twin-linked heavy bolter, so it can provide some very nice firepower. Don't make the mistake of using a Land Raider as a gun platform though - you have many other ways of getting far more effective and efficient firepower into an army list at a much cheaper cost. It is first and foremost a transport - it is also the only in-codex one that can carry Terminators, Obliterators, Mutilators and Chaos Spawn - though you would never put Obliterators or Chaos Spawn in there as it would defeat the purpose of both units. It also has the distinction of being our only assault transport, so it also works for other dedicated combat units.

If you take a Land Raider, be prepared to lose it. As unassailable as it seems, it will still die to a single meltagun shot - a gun that is readily available to almost any codex. It will die when charged by a monstrous creature. It will die when shot by masses of Gauss Necrons. It will be destroyed as easily as a Dreadnought against Dark Lances. Railguns and Zoanthropes will blow it up with little difficulty. And unfortunately for you, it will be a large and obvious target for your opponent. Also, a major crippling issue is that the guns most likely to destroy you - i.e. meltas and Warp Lances - are short range and thus become more dangerous as you get closer to drop off your cargo. If it is destroyed before it delivers its unit, it will feel like a massive waste. As such a significant points investment, you are forced to weigh up your other options - if you want to transport Terminators, maybe consider deep striking them as it is much cheaper albeit less reliable. If you actually do want it for durable firepower, then consider the firepower that 10 Havocs with eight autocannons brings for a slightly lower points cost - park them in cover in your backfield and worry not. The Land Raider can take some upgrades, but these only add to its already considerable cost. A dozer blade is mandatory and daemonic possession is good albeit risky. Overall, as negative as I am about the Land Raider, it will still probably work fine for the most part. Just be aware that they aren't all that cost-effective compared to a lot of other choices. A decent choice.

Defiler - Some might see this has been 'Carnifex'd!'. I respectfully disagree. Whilst by no means do I think it is worth the price tag, the fact remains that the Defiler has benefited hugely from the 6th Edition rulebook and codex rules. Having 4 Hull Points, a 5+ invulnerable save, 5+ It Will Not Die, having an in-codex unit that can repair it, randomized weapon destroyed results and (arguably) the changes to Fleet means the Defiler has gained a lot and lost very little. Did I mention the Daemonforge which once per game you can use in one of your shooting or assault phases to re-roll all failed to wound and armour penetration rolls? It has access to vehicle upgrades - such as the Dirge Caster, which is hilarious on the Defiler if you use it right - and has more weapon options than before. I always thought in the old codex that the Defiler was worth it - the real jack-of-all-trades unit, with a battle cannon, a heavy flamer, a reaper autocannon and three attacks base at S10 ignoring armour. Always a great 'odd one out' unit in the slot. The fact that it got so much better paints a great picture. Unfortunately, I wouldn't run one in competitive army lists anymore for the simple fact that its base cost is far too high. As much as its abilities make it really nasty - as in almost unfair - against armies that rely on massed glancing hits to destroy vehicles, it will still die to the odd lascannon shot as easily as it did before. Apart from being able to snap fire the Reaper Autocannon, its damage output hasn't really changed either.

The Defiler suffers from being a massive target and a relatively easy one to destroy for high strength anti-tank weaponry. Though it can be used as an effective long-range artillery platform, its size means it is easy prey for autocannons, lascannons and other artillery weapons. The result is a unit that flouts the new cool daemon engine rules with sumptuous abandon, but is ultimately brought down by having to pay a tax for such abilities. Whilst a Defiler can still be useful in an army list, do not bet your strategy on it - they can do quite a bit of damage, but they are an easy target for your opponent and are not durable enough to make up the high points cost. Over-costed though it may be, remember that you can still fire your battle-cannon whilst the enemy closes, and then charge whilst mowing them down with the heavy flamer and reaper autocannon. Stay away from other walkers. A decent unit overall.

Maulerfiend - Ahh, its out to get me! NOOO! Anyway, the Maulerfiend is a very nasty unit that I would give a very examination - especially if the model suits your tastes. Like the Defiler, it has a 5+ invulnerable save, a 5+ It Will Not Die save, Daemonforge, Fleet and Daemonic Possession. Unlike the Defiler, it has 3 Hull Points, it moves 12" and ignores both difficult and dangerous terrain when moving and charging, it has no ranged weaponry, it is more easily hidden and it has some nasty melee capabilities. All of that, and it is far, far cheaper than the giant crab. The implications of a 12" movement, the ability to re-roll charge distance and ignoring terrain for movement and charging are staggering - this is probably the fastest walker in the game (that I know of). Walkers usually suffer from a lack of mobility - this ignores all of that and is quite capable of first turn charges. And when it gets into combat, it hits harder than its profile would intimate; WS3, I3 and 3 attacks (including the extra CCW) doesn't sound like much, at least until you get to the juicy options the Maulerfiend has. You come with a pair of magma-cutters base - each one provides an automatic hit resolved at S8 AP1 I1 Armourbane as long as the Maulerfiend hits with at least one attack (the magma cutter attacks are resolved against an already hit model, so they are less useful against single-wound models), and double that per magma cutter if all of your attacks hit. This makes the Maulerfiend a wrecking ball when sent against vehicles, and even makes it a threat against most walkers - as long as they aren't dedicated combat walkers, they are unlikely to destroy a Maulerfiend before it hits back and destroys them.

The other is lasher tendrils - for an increase in points, you get a pair of these which each reduce enemy models' in base-to-base A characteristic by one. Hidden power fist won't look so nasty with one attack. Whilst this is great in practice, ultimately I find it is less useful against most targets you will face - namely Space Marines. Almost all Space Marines come with Krak Grenades, which means the Lasher Tendrils won't make a difference to them. They will definitely help against other walkers and the like, but are less useful against grenade-toting infantry. As such, I find the Maulerfiend's best application to be as a siege engine that barrels straight towards your opponent's most threatening/expensive vehicles. Maulerfiends don't care about whether a Rhino or a Land Raider is the prey - both will more than likely be wreckage once it charges. As great as I feel they are, especially given their low points cost, be aware that the lack of any ranged weaponry means they are essentially useless against flier-heavy army lists. Also remember that the large size can't always be hidden behind terrain, as much as the speed of the Maulerfiend will allow you to abuse cover. Whilst it is cheap enough to use with little regret, and its inherent speed means it will probably make its points back on turn 2 when it inevitably charges, the Maulerfiend needs to be used delicately; mech-heavy opponents will be scared to death of it, and target it appropriately. A very good choice overall.

Forgefiend - The more popular of the two 'Fiend' variants and probably not without good reason, the Forgefiend loses the Maulerfiend's mobility and close combat potential but instead provides staggering long to mid-ranged firepower. The goodies of being a daemon engine are all there, and unlike the Maulerfiend, the Forgefiend can quite happily sit in your backfield and lay waste to your opponents. The Forgefiend is also a large and immensely frightening target, like the Maulerfiend - it will draw copious amounts of attention from your enemies. Don't be surprised if it is the first thing they attempt to destroy - remember to grin devilishly when it passes that lucky invulnerable save against a penetrating hit from a multi-melta or lascannon (it will happen more times than you would think). The Forgefiend can be equipped in four configurations, based upon its weaponry - similar to the Maulerfiend, this will change what targets you commonly choose. The first loadout is standard - two Hades Autocannons. Remember how nasty Psybolt Dreadnoughts are? The Forgefiend wants a word - 8 S8 AP4 Pinning shots. The only issue is BS3 and no twin-linked, meaning you will be prone to a bad roll - by the same token, you will be prone to an ungodly amount of hits. You average four hits, the same as the Psybolt Dreadnought. In that sense, you are doing the same job as one of the most points-efficient tank-hunters in the game. Just be aware that you are quite a bit more expensive, have more in-built randomness in your shooting, and a shorter range, though you offset this by being a lot more durable.

The second option is to keep the autocannons but give it an Ectoplasm Cannon to replace its head. Ultimately, for a decent increase in points, this will make you quite threatening to infantry as well as vehicles. 8 S8 AP4 Pinning shots will hurt almost anything, but adding a S8 AP2 blast makes you far deadlier to infantry (especially TEQs) and in essence gives you an additional S8 shot against vehicles. Be aware that the Ectoplasm Cannon has a 24" range whereas the Hades Autocannon has a 36" range, meaning that taking Ectoplasm Cannons will put you in range of weapons such as Psycannons, multi-meltas, assault cannons and so on. I haven't seen this loadout used as yet but it is an option to consider. The third loadout is to switch the autocannons for ectoplasm cannons for free - changing your role from a tank-hunter/sort of multi-purpose unit to an almost strictly heavy-infantry hunter. Want to make Paladins cry? As much as a smart Grey Knight player will put Draigo at the front of their Draigowing, remember that such army lists tend to have two units of Paladins. Either shoot the unit without Draigo or get around to the side and shoot their flanks. The Forgefiend will make its points back very quickly as long as you score some hits - again though, be careful to remember that the 24" range of your guns will subsequently put you in psycannon range. The last option is triple ectoplasm cannons, and it will make Terminator-heavy armies weep - this goes without saying. And the funny thing about the Ectoplasm Cannons and their Gets Hot! rule? The Forgefiend has to roll a 1, then fail a 4+ save, then fail a 5+ invulnerable save, then fail a 5+ It Will Not Die roll. Yeah.

Now that I've got the options out of the way, we can talk about application - my personal recommendation is the standard Hades Autocannon loadout. The 36" range means you can stay out of range of most anti-tank weaponry, and you will provide a punishing amount of firepower whilst staying safe do to your relatively high durability. It also means the Forgefiend can provide a decent threat to fliers - 8 shots will only average 1 or 2 hits, but S8 means it can easily punch a hole in most fliers. The Ectoplasm Cannons are devastating, but prone to scatter and will make the Forgefiend far more vulnerable to short-ranged anti-tank weaponry. You also invite being charged by fast moving units that may not necessarily destroy it but tie it up for most of the game - 2 WS3 I3 S6 AP- attacks per turn won't get you anywhere quickly. The joy of the Forgefiend is that you can magnetize the arms - and as the points costs are free, you can quite readily switch its guns out for other guns once you've seen what your opponent is using. This won't work at tournaments however, or any game where you are required to clearly mark down what weapons it is using. In friendly games though, most opponents either won't notice or won't care. I would avoid sticking the third ectoplasm cannon on the Forgefiend for modelling reasons, though it is certainly a good idea for gaming purposes as you can always either use it with the gun or not. The Forgefiend's role will change based on what you equip it for - my general advice is to keep it well away from enemy units and minimize any potential damage it may receive through LoS-blocking terrain. A very good choice overall - like the Maulerfiend however, it requires finesse.

Obliterators - Part of the infamous 5th Edition Lash/Plague/Oblit army lists, Obliterators are one of the most cost-effective and multi-purpose ranged units in the entire game. For not much more than a standard Loyalist Terminator, you gain an extra wound, cause Fear, and, of course, have access to the many and varied Obliterator weapons. With the inclusion of Assault Cannons, Obliterators can reliably deal with any threat you need them to - the lack of twin-linking on most of their weapons, particularly their long and medium ranged ones, can be a nuisance, but they will average a good number of hits. Whilst a three-man squad can be expensive, you would be hard pressed to say that they aren't worth it. A rifleman Dreadnought giving you trouble? Hit it with Lascannons. Terminators advancing towards you? Make them eat raw Plasma Cannons. See a flying monstrous-creature? Assault Cannons will give you a good chance of both hurting it and grounding it. A Land Raider parked near them? Hit it with Multi-Meltas or twin-linked Meltaguns. Hormagaunts about to pounce on you? Twin-linked Flamers or Heavy Flamers should do the trick. Notice a theme there? Obliterators get more and more weapons available to them as they get closer to the enemy - as in, you can engage more threats with a shorter range. Especially with the new restriction that the same weapons cannot be used in subsequent turns (and that Obliterators must all shoot the same weapons) it means that you shouldn't sit at the back of the board in cover - there's only so many long-range weapons they have.

This is why the most common tactic with Obliterators is to start them in cover with a good LoS to the enemy, punch them with lascannons, then slowly move forward, firing plasma cannons, and then assault cannons or other weapons as necessary - they really do become more dangerous as they get closer. This provides an interesting challenge - Obliterators have 2 attacks and power fists base, but they are wasted in assault. As you get closer though, you risk being charged. Altogether, it means that as multi-purpose as they are, you need to be very careful and considerate with Obliterators. They will also be the target of any smart players' shooting; lascannons and plasma weapons are the most common culprits. As each lascannon shot will instant-death an Obliterator if they don't pass their invulnerable/cover save, it is recommended that you try to either engage such targets and neutralize them or move out of their range/line of sight. Each Obliterator lost is a significant blow - their cost and low squad size means they can be easily neutered. The lack of Fearless and being only LD8, combined with their tiny squad size, means they are quite likely to fail a morale check at one point during the game - this is also why you typically shouldn't leave them sitting in your backfield.

Obliterators can also get some very handy - but expensive - bonuses from marks. As you want to avoid combat, Khorne really isn't that useful, and as your only combat weapon is a power fist, Slaanesh is virtually useless. Tzeentch and Nurgle, however, can make your Obliterators unfairly hard to kill. Tzeentch gives them a very nice 4+ invulnerable save, which is very useful once you shift out of cover. However, the generally superior choice is Nurgle - T5 means Obliterators are no longer lascannon bait, and makes them almost immune to small arms fire. Just remember not to get too arrogant with the inclusion of marks - Obliterators will still die to focused fire if you aren't careful. Veterans of the Long War is actually useful on these guys, as LD9 makes them much less likely to fail a leadership check. It is mostly up to you though. In general, there is very little you can say against Obliterators - they were and remain still one of our best sources of durable firepower. An excellent choice overall.

Havocs - Like Bikers and Raptors, Havocs have benefited immensely from a reduction in points and much cheaper upgrades/weapon options. Instead of being poor, over-costed imitations of Loyalist Devastators, Havocs are now arguably our most points-efficient Heavy Support choice. A five-man squad with four autocannons provides ridiculously efficient firepower at 20 popsickles less than a Psybolt Dreadnought. For the same cost as said Psybolt Dreadnought, you can have four missile launchers. Need I say more? Well yes, yes I do. The way you equip Havocs depends on what you want to use them for and what you find to be lacking in your army. The ability to take four special or heavy weapons in a minimum-sized squad is the defining trait of the squad - use it. If you use Havocs with less than four special/heavy weapons, your opponents - and myself - will probably say "you are doing it wrong" unless you have a specific plan in mind or don't have the models - not using their unique ability makes them a waste of time. As it is typically what defines Havocs, I will rate their weapon loadouts separately;

Flamer - Typically, you want Havocs to be used in an anti-tank role, but this isn't a bad option by all means. Even MEQs will die to sheer weight of saves caused by that many well-placed flamer templates. This squad requires a Rhino.
Heavy Bolter - I would recommend autocannons over heavy bolters anyday. Whilst Heavy Bolters provide 5 more shots if using 4 of them against 4 autocannons, they are at 2 less Strength and have 12" less range, meaning they are useful really only for MEQ suppression and hordes.
Autocannon - Probably my recommended choice, these are absurdly cheap on Havocs. Four of these in a five man squad puts out 8 S7 AP4 48" range shots per turn, averaging 6 hits, wrecking a vehicle that is AV11 or lower, and getting a glance and a penetrating hit against AV12. All this for only slightly more than 100 points. These are also pretty good against monstrous creatures and anything with a 4+ armour save.

Meltagun - A squad of these is guaranteed either to die before they reach their target or simply annihilate any non-flyer vehicle they hit. They require a Rhino and should be one of many advancing units.
Plasma Gun - Four plasma guns is sure to make non-horde and non-AV13 units cry. You will kill a Hive Tyrant without a fight at rapid fire range, and have a decent chance of outright killing a Trygon or Tyrannofex. As mentioned though, horde units won't really care about them, and AV13 can shrug it off easily. Be very careful of overheating. A risky unit that is best served with a Rhino as well.
Missile Launcher - Missile Launchers are probably the most versatile of the heavy weapons available to Havocs, alternating between 4 S8 AP3 shots and 4 S4 AP6 small blasts. Whilst not as good or cheap as Long Fangs, these will still do the job well and are guaranteed to bring the pain. You also have the option of Flakk Missiles - meaning you can threaten fliers, but I wouldn't recommend this as it is expensive and not all that threatening.
Lascannon - Lascannons are lascannons, as the saying goes - you love them, we know. I find autocannons to be more efficient however - but there is no doubt that four lascannons can and should destroy almost any vehicle they target. Just be mindful that unlike autocannons and missile launchers, they won't be able to do much against armies that don't utilize vehicles. They are the most expensive weapon option you can take, but they aren't as costly as they are in other codices, which is usually their main issue.

I recommend the autocannons or the missile launchers, and be careful not to mix and match weapons - you do not want the unit to lose focus and redundancy. Havocs are there to provide effective anti-tank firepower at a relatively low cost - if you want midfield units that can utilize four special weapons, use Chosen instead as they are actually very good in combat even without combat upgrades (or just stick to basic Chaos Marines). Like other Chaos Marines, Havocs can also be marked - Khorne and Slaanesh typically defeat the purpose of the unit, similar to Obliterators, and I would say Nurgle is the best by far. Havocs need durability, and cover is the best way to find that - T5 also means small arms fire is less effective against them. Being Havocs though, anti-tank firepower will often be directed at them, and as such, Tzeentch is tempting - but only for a specific reason. If you grab a Skyshield Landing Pad, you can stick Tzeentch Havocs (and Tzeentch Obliterators or anything with long-range firepower you want to protect) on top of it to enjoy near unparalleled LoS and a 3+ invulnerable save. The other upgrades are situational - I wouldn't bother upgrading the aspiring champion usually, and Veterans of the Long War isn't necessary. Havocs are easy to use - give them the weapons you want to give them, sit them in cover, point them at the best target, shoot, profit. Just remember to give them protection - counter-charge units such as Cultists are very helpful for this purpose. An excellent choice overall.

[entendre_entendre]

One rule is to never forget the Ordnance rules - you always strike side armour against vehicles.

Nope. That's only Barrage Weapons (p34). Ordnance get 2d6 highest for Armour Pen. Unless you ally in Guard, you're you're to be plinking away against the front armour of those Russes. :/

If you take Vindicators, at least take the siege shields. 10pts for auto-pass all DT test? Hell yeah. Drive right up in those buildings and stick your gun out. Possession keeps you shooting for little penalty (-1BS on a Large Blast won't hurt you unless you really whiff, but then, you'd probably miss anyways...) and a 5pt Combi-bolter gives armament destroyed only a 50/50 chance of losing your cannon. With all 3 upgrades, you're looking at 150pts a piece, a good price for what you get.

Land Raiders are 'meh', I seriously don't get why Chaos doesn't get the Infernal Device back. Would giving Chaos Raiders PotMS really be so game breaking?

[Learn2Eel]

Ah, my mistake. My head's a bit on the swivel lately.

[Caitsidhe]

@Caitsidhe I agree with most of your post, however I disagree on your evaluation of the Maulerfiend. It is a very big model but the fact that it ignores cover and moves that quickly means it is very easy to just charge it straight into cover/hide it on the first turn. And that 5+ invulnerable save actually does make a huge difference, especially on an AV12 vehicle. I watched both the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend in action yesterday and the former tanked three lascannon shots through its invulnerable saves. When the former also had multiple overheats from the ectoplasm cannons, it either passed its invulnerable saves or passed its It Will Not Die rolls.

Fair enough. My own test by proxy has not shown near as much durability but I'm willing to put it back on the table and try again. I still have to wonder if your results are more representative of good dice and a largely singular event or game after game reliability.

If you are using Bikers or Raptors in conjunction with the Maulerfiend, you will have a very fast moving element to your army that is also quite dangerous. Maulerfiends are a priority target for anyone but their speed lets them abuse cover pretty well.

I like Raptors (while detesting them in 5th) and they are generally my assault unit, i.e. unit whose primary purpose is to go tie up problematic gun line units. Buying the Maulerfiend as a "lure" or the having the Raptors be the "lure" to pull fire away from one another hasn't really worked for me. Most opponents decide which unit is the bigger problem for them and level withering fire on the top choice and simply intercept the secondary. Even so, I'm willing to go back and proxy-test a few more games. I use a custom, scratch built Defiler which could be a Maulerfiend just as easily if I choose over the long haul. The current cost of the Defiler make it likely that when I use that model, a Maulerfiend is far more likely to be called upon. When I want the Defiler's large blast, AP-3 template, I'll come in with Blight Drones.

[Learn2Eel]

I find that a 5+ invulnerable save is more often than not a life-saver on any vehicle, take my Dark Eldar for instance. In 5th Edition, Flickerfields were mandatory on all of my Raiders, Venoms and Ravagers. I found that even on paper-plane AV10 vehicles, that 5+ invulnerable save protected me a lot - especially against penetrating hits. It usually meant the difference between a wrecked Raider and one without a Dark Lance. Ditto that for an AV12 vehicle, and that's why I tend to think that a 33% chance to basically deflect any hit is pretty rad. I find it works best when I have multiple glances or penetrating hits - I usually save the penetrating hits, but let the glancing hits through. In that sense, I'm not too fussed as the Maulerfiend has IWND.

That's probably just me though, but I think that the speed of the Maulerfiend is its best attribute - if you have the terrain available, it is perfectly fine to hide and then charge out on the second turn once they come closer.

[dubhgilla]

@ Learn2Eel Please put this post this in a Chaos Tactics thread that can be stickied.

This is all really good advise.

[Learn2Eel]

Wow, thank you! I will do