I come for help: Looking to write a tournament competitive CSM army. Details inside

[MrGraveRisen]

I have always been a fluff based army builder and painter. My armies do alright, but not great. Always middle of the pack when it comes to generalship, but thanks to soft scores and winning best painted/best presentation 90% of the time (including throne of skulls) I've carried my way through many tournaments.

But that's it. I'm done playing soft. I have shelves full of painting trophies, I want to gun for generalship. Problem is I have 10 years of fluffy list building behind me and I can't break out of that. But I do want to try and stick to a few things, here are the guidelines I'm looking at...

RULE 1: 1750 points
RULE 2: No allies if I can avoid them
RULE 3: NO NURGLE. Hate painting it and hate using it.
And lastly if at all possible... would like to only use 1 god mark in the army if any are used, and I would like to use warp talons.

I'm not necessarily asking for an entire list (unless you feel like writing one) just suggestions, guidelines, things to include, etc.

Thanks for your time!

[jifel]

I have always been a fluff based army builder and painter. My armies do alright, but not great. Always middle of the pack when it comes to generalship, but thanks to soft scores and winning best painted/best presentation 90% of the time (including throne of skulls) I've carried my way through many tournaments.

But that's it. I'm done playing soft. I have shelves full of painting trophies, I want to gun for generalship. Problem is I have 10 years of fluffy list building behind me and I can't break out of that. But I do want to try and stick to a few things, here are the guidelines I'm looking at...

RULE 1: 1750 points
RULE 2: No allies if I can avoid them
RULE 3: NO NURGLE. Hate painting it and hate using it.
And lastly if at all possible... would like to only use 1 god mark in the army if any are used, and I would like to use warp talons.

I'm not necessarily asking for an entire list (unless you feel like writing one) just suggestions, guidelines, things to include, etc.

Thanks for your time!

Heldrakes, bikers, and Havocs are all considered good. The best troops are Plague Marines (yeah I know you hate them) and Emperors Children. Large cultist blobs look pretty good, for objective fun, and there are lots of options for Super Killy lords. Consider Spawn as extra wounds for a Jugger lord with a Blind Axe and MoK. Even more fun, Sorcerors can be really good n cheap.

[MrGraveRisen]

Heldrakes, bikers, and Havocs are all considered good. The best troops are Plague Marines (yeah I know you hate them) and Emperors Children. Large cultist blobs look pretty good, for objective fun, and there are lots of options for Super Killy lords. Consider Spawn as extra wounds for a Jugger lord with a Blind Axe and MoK. Even more fun, Sorcerors can be really good n cheap.

Yeah a heldrake and some bikes I was really considering using, same with spawn. They're just TOO good to ignore as a tarpit/sometimes killy unit (spawn that is).

I'm having such a hard time tearing myself away from fluff XD (khorne units in the army with a sorcerer, for example). I'm hoping to find a nice balance. And I've never liked nurgle for any reason, whether or not they've been the "meta", sadly :\

Noise marines I was considering, or at the very least slaanesh marked units. And possibly on a block of warp talons. i5 lightning claws with a black mace lord in the pack would be deadly, and not all that expensive. Then there's also khorne marked standard CSM marines with an icon of wrath... they're in some ways better than a berserker (minus WS) and cheaper too.

[entendre_entendre]

RULE 1: 1750 points
RULE 2: No allies if I can avoid them
RULE 3: NO NURGLE. Hate painting it and hate using it.
And lastly if at all possible... would like to only use 1 god mark in the army if any are used, and I would like to use warp talons.

Cultists are good for objective holding. They're cheap and can come in large blocks if you want them. CCW+pistol for cheap bodies, autoguns if you want them to do something other than hide all game. The marks are mostly 'meh', especially since you don't want to use nurgle at all. I think it's better to just go with more bodies than load up on marks.

Warp Talons are 'meh' overall. 30pts/guy + points for a mark and no frag grenades = not really worth it IMO. Which sucks because the models look awesome. Raptors can be made to work, but you'll have Helldrakes, Bikers, and Spawn competing to slots and points here though. :/

Bikes are good. Load up on special weapons and a mark if you feel like it. Khorne wouldn't hurt as with the speed of the unit you can decide where and when they hit. Slaanesh could work if you need to assault into cover. Skip Tzeenech, you already have a jink save. Remember, they're also Relentless so you can fire your Plasmaguns and then charge.

Overall, you'll probably need around 4 or more troops units if you want to hold objectives. Take at least one squad of cultists for some extra numbers. Depending on what mark your Lord takes (if you do take a lord), you may or may not want the cult troops. Beserkers, as much fun as they are, are usually outperformed by Khorne marked CSM. Noise Marines are great though, especially if you know you're going to play against any light infantry army (guard, Orks, nids, etc.) Take Blastmasters to scare marines. Thousand Sons are ok, die like marines, but eat AT fire much better. However, you can do the same by cover-camping.

CSM squads are your bread and butter here. Units of 10 get 2 special weapons (or 1 special/1heavy). Mount them in transports for some much needed mobility. I can recommend more unit setups if I know your playstyle and what you favour in your strategy/tactics (i.e. shooty, CC, multipurpose, etc.). Mrk Khorne can be useful just for the Counter Attack, but again, that depends on your playstyle. Veterans of the Long War is a must on your regular guys just for that point of Ld the Hatred Spess Muhreenz is a nice bonus. I've found the key to CSM squads is to spend enough points to make them good, but not too many to leave you shorthanded on the field.

Very general I know, but I hope that helps.

[DarkLink]

If you're looking for a themed but still competitive list, then it's not too hard to stick to one god. You might need to take some undivided units, but that's not too big of a deal.

You mentioned Slaanesh, which is a pretty solid choice. Noise Marines have good firepower, and a large CSM squad with I5 and FNP is no joke either. Cultists are, as mentioned, a great cheap scoring unit, though it's probably not worth taking any marks on them. Keep them cheap, unless you're taking Typhus zombies but you mentioned not liking Nurgle.

So your core troops could look something like this:

2x5 Noise Marines, Doom Siren, Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher
10 Noise Marines, Blastmaster, Sonic Weapons, Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher
2x10 Cultists
20 CSM, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2 Plasma Rifles, 2 CCW

That's 6 full units, 40 Marines, and a good amount of firepower.



You'd want the CSM to be Fearless, so stick your HQ with them. The 20 Marines plus HQ make for a semi-deathstar unit. The Doom Sirens go after other Marines, the large Noise Marine squad sits midfield and shoots, and the cultists Go To Ground on an objective. A sorcerer and a Lord with a Daemon Weapon can be pretty nasty, Slaanesh has good psychic powers.


Heavy and Fast Attack are easy. Obliterators, a Heldrake, maybe a unit of Bikes. You probably won't have points left over for Elites, unless you dropped something. A unit of Termiators with lots of AP2 and Combi-plasma/melta is pretty nasty, though.

It's probably not the hardest list out there by any means, but you should have a competitive enough list that it will come down to your skill as a player.

[Learn2Eel]

ARGH, was posting a long reply and it got deleted because my damn computer decided it had to go back.
Will post later.

[Anggul]

If you want single-mark and Warp Talons I too would recommend Slaanesh. I5 is always great, and sonic weapons are super-fun-times. Also excellent with Warp Talons because squad of I5 Lightning Claws. Just make sure you don't get them in line with any amount of focussed firepower, because despite the 5++ they still only have power armour. Still, you have Jump Packs so you can generally dictate where you're going to be.

[Learn2Eel]

Ok, so lets try this again and hope the computer doesn't delete it AGAIN.

These are some example builds of units to fit into a competitive army list - remembering though that you can't just chuck any unit into an army list and hope for the best, they have to work with the rest of your list.
So here we go. Also, for those that do not want to read the giant wall of text and want a short and simple summary, check the sections marked Summary!. Unfortunately, my mind went into overdrive and I kind of vomited all of my ideas into what is now a mini-tactica. Cheers.

HQ - Here are my thoughts on each generic HQ choice, and then some example builds that I find to be competitive.

Chaos Lord - Very cheap, very killy. A fully kitted out one will usually run you well under 200 points, which is lovely. They can take crazy wargear options, and there are currently several viable builds you could use. Think about where you want to put him, what you want him to kill, and what unit you want him to run with, in any order. Has a decent shooting option in the form of the Burning Brand (it makes Space Marines cry). Basically, you can customize him to deal with anything you want, and he will do it cheaply. Very good choice overall.

Sorcerer - I have to keep resisting the urge to call them Sorcerer Lords. Brought in line with Loyalist Librarians, Sorcerers are IMO the best HQ choice we have right now. One with a 3+ 4++ and Mastery Level 2 is ridiculously cheap and has access to a very nasty primaris power from the Telepathy discipline - Psychic Shriek. Biomancy is a great psychic discipline, and Pyromancy has never failed me either. If you are using him in this role though, just stick him in with a Chaos Marine squad in a rhino. Sorcerer's aren't what I would call a defensive or support psyker - pretty much all of his powers are geared to offense. Excellent choice overall.

Dark Apostle - I've noticed some people don't see this guy as very viable and don't like his pricey basic cost. Weaker stat-line than a Chaos Lord, more expensive, etc. However, he comes with a power maul, a +4 invulnerable save, and some very interesting abilities base. I see this guy as useful in two particular ways - as he has the Zealot rule, he grants himself and any unit he joins both Fearless and Hatred. Remember how you have to pay about 50+ points for that on a 10-man squad?

Well, for about double the cost, they are getting to use his LD10, have Hatred Everything as opposed to just Loyalists, and you get a two-wound power-maul wielding sucker that makes everyone near him LD10. In that sense, he's like an upgrade character for a unit - the only sad truth is that he is a HQ and not something like a 1-3 choice in the Elites section. I think he's priced decently for what he does, but it depends on what unit you want him to go with. Just remember, he makes Cultists quite nasty if you don't go the Typhus route. Good choice, but only if you make use of his abilities - don't think of him in the same sense as you would a Chaos Lord.

Warpsmith - One of the few HQs I have yet to use, but I find him to be quite a decent choice. Like the Dark Apostle, his base cost is high compared to the Chaos Lord/Sorcerer, but he gets some great abilities to compensate. +2 armour base, 5 (count them) power axe attacks base, repair, etc. Having a twin-linked meltagun, a twin-linked flamer and so on is just the icing on this sweet cake. Don't be afraid to stick him with a close combat unit or a shooty unit - his repair abilities also combine well with the Fiends, depending on which ones are used. Maulerfiends? Stick him in a Rhino and follow them. Forgefiends? Hang back with some Havocs or Obliterators and help out. Good choice overall.

Daemon Prince - I'll be honest - I wouldn't recommend the Daemon Prince. Whilst he is a crazy killing machine and, if kitted out appropriately, will make armies lacking S10 weaponry or lots of high strength firepower cry, he tends to be over-priced for what he does. Stay away from Grey Knights, Tau and Necrons. They will ruin your day in short order. However, despite all of that, he is the most powerful of your generic HQs by quite some margin - and he is a massive target because of it. Combined with the Black Mace, there is little the Daemon Prince cannot kill in a single game turn. Also laugh as you auto-sweep I3 enemies and lower. Even I4 is reliant on the absolute luckiest of dice rolls to get away from you, and WS9 means you can laugh off krak-grenade wielding Space Marines. Expensive choice, not typically considered to be efficient, but certain builds can be quite nasty if used right.

Now, for some example builds;

Chaos Lord w/ mark of tzeentch, terminator armour, chainfist, lightning claw, sigil of corruption - I've seen some variations of this, but I think a lot of people agree that this is one of the more frightening Chaos Lords to deal with. 2+ armour, 3+ invulnerable saves against anything. Chainfist for dealing with +2 armour/monstrous creatures/tanks, lightning claw for infantry/MEQ. Very cheap too. Works well in pretty much any role.

Chaos Lord w/ mark of khorne, juggernaught of khorne, axe of blind fury, sigil of corruption - Attach a unit of Chaos Spawn or Bikers and send him barreling into a suitable target. Keep away from Walkers. He will rip through all manner of targets; he has the number of attacks to deal with entire squads single-handedly, he can scythe through TEQs and MEQs alike with impunity, he can do damage to light vehicles, and the tasty +4 invulnerable save gives him a 50% chance of laughing off any S10 AP2-3 etc attacks. Fast and durable enough to make it through your opponent's shooting phase, and deadly to a wide range of targets. Veterans of the Long War and Meltabombs are also useful, cheap upgrades, depending on what you expect to face. And the big cherry on top? This killing machine will cost you less than 200 points.

Daemon Prince (any kind) w/ the black mace, wings, power armour - I find the best way to run a flying Daemon Prince is to make him a Nurgle prince, whilst being Slow and Purposeful means you can't sweeping advance enemies by making use of your extraordinarily high initiative, you get a permanent +5 cover save which increases to +3 in any kind of terrain. However, any of them are useful - just remember that a Daemon Prince with the Black Mace won't find much benefit from Furious Charge. Anyway, this is a very expensive model (in the Abaddon price range) that can fall to a single S10 hit.

However, flying gives you serious mobility and durability against non-skyfire weaponry. All the juice that comes with being a flying monstrous creature is here, but the real meat of this unit is the Black Mace - this is okay normally, but in the hands of a model with Smash, it becomes terrifyingly powerful. At WS9, you will hit almost any enemy in the game on a +3, and against unlucky Loyalists, you do so with re-rolls on the first combat round. You then wound everything on a +2 resolved at AP2 and I8. Remembering that you have 5 attacks base, +D6 and other bonuses. Toughness tests galore, let us not forget! Just remember not to go anywhere near Tau with this guy.

Sorcerer w/ sigil of corruption, mastery level 2, meltabombs - My personal favourite build for a Sorcerer Lord so far. Cheap as chips for what he does. Give him Psychic Shriek, put him in a Rhino with a Chaos Marine squad with a meltagun or plasma gun, and you are set. The second psychic power you generate is basically a bonus - Pyromancy is risky as it is mostly witchfire powers, but Biomancy is very good for almost any situation.

Special Characters - I wanted to attend to these guys separately to give out a more in-depth feel of them.

Abaddon - Still a nightmare in combat, but provides great buffs to your army - if you tailor the list to suit those benefits and remember that they are only really useful against Loyalist Space Marines. Typically, a good choice as he can reliably kill most enemy units in the game in combat, and will laugh off other armies dedicated combat HQs of similar costs - i.e. Mephiston, Draigo, etc. There aren't many things Abaddon can't deal with once he gets close - notably AV14 and the Swarmlord. However, his exorbitant price means you should reserve him for bigger games. A fun alternative - if you are playing against Loyalists - is to stick Abaddon into a unit of Obliterators and simply slowly advance towards your enemy. It makes the Obliterators even more of a target, but your opponent won't be happy when Abaddon tanks the damage whilst the Obliterators re-roll all 1s to hit and wound with lascannons, assault cannons, plasma cannons, etc. He also does work in this capacity in smaller games as you don't have to worry about a transport - this also allows him to move up with an army and they can all benefit from the joys of Preferred Enemy. A good choice overall IF you build the list around him.

Huron - He has probably benefited the most from the new rules, at least IMO. He could be quite accurately called the jack-of-all-trades special character of the codex, with a heavy flamer, a S6 lightning claw with 2D6 armour penetration, a power axe, a random psychic power each turn, etc. He also guarantees D3 Infiltrating infantry units if he is your Warlord. He has a 4+ invulnerable save. You literally cannot go wrong with this guy. He is also very cheap - he costs about as much as a basic Daemon Prince. Excellent choice overall, you could quite easily throw him into any army list and he would do the job you give him well.

Fabius Bile - He has lots of attacks, he is tough, he is strong, he can dish the pain out pretty decently and can give any enemy without a good armour save hell (and even power-armoured enemies have to be careful not to fail an armour save). He, like the Dark Apostle, can be seen as an upgrade character - giving an entire unit S5 and Fearless for free is a very nice benefit. This works well if you intend to use said squad in combat (which you should). However, his abilities are of questionable value - whilst the free upgrade to a unit is good, getting them into combat and realizing their durability doesn't change is still the kicker. Funny on Nurgle marked Chaos Marines, they are essentially super-marines with S5 T5 and Fearless. Personally, as his cost is similar to Kharn/Lucius/Huron, I wouldn't recommend him as his abilities just do not stack up IMO. However, he is not a bad choice by any means. Solid choice overall.

Ahriman - I've used him a few times so far in the new rules, and boy, he is quite the nutcase. My recommended power load-out is this - roll once on Tzeentch (mandatory), roll once on Telepathy (if you don't get one of the Mastery Level 2 powers, switch for Psychic Shriek), and then either roll twice on Biomancy (any power here is good, but Iron Arm/Enfeeble/Endurance/Life Leech are almost unfair on Ahriman) or take a roll on Pyromancy. Two games in a row, I got Doombolt, Psychic Shriek, Iron Arm and Endurance, and my opponent simply could not beat him down without Ahriman making his points back. Dependant on luck mostly though, which means he isn't the best option for a competitive army. Allowing Thousand Sons to Infiltrate solves a few problems, and he can spam witchfire powers to your hearts' content. Very expensive, and will statistically be killed outright by two krak missiles. A solid choice overall.

Kharn - You thought Huron's close combat abilities were good? Guess again. S7 I5 A7 AP2 with 2D6 armour penetration on the charge says hi. Get him into combat and also take advantage of his abilities, particularly his Warlord trait - as he grants Hatred to himself and his attached unit, you do not have to worry about Veterans of the Long War for his bodyguard unit. Keeping that in mind, he also gives the whole unit a 2+ Deny the Witch save. Run him into Grey Knights and laugh as their force weapons can't instant death you. However, be aware that daemon hammers and sheer number of AP3 attacks will still kill you. That is, of course, if they get to strike back (stay the hell away from Halberds). Also a challenge monster. Cheap as hell and one of the most damaging HQs in the game - there aren't too many things you should be afraid of, and remember, he's Kharn. He can chop up monstrous creatures (remember to keep away from ones that can challenge you though), stands a great chance of blowing up Land Raiders (and thus any other ground-based vehicle), chops through walkers, weaves through Terminators and other Infantry, etc. Very good choice overall.

Typhus - Nasty in combat, but of limited use against Walkers and high armour vehicles. Can make monstrous creatures cry. One of the toughnest nuts to crack as far as small arms fire goes. Fear is situational and you shouldn't bank on it. Be aware not to waste the Destroyer Hive - it might kill half a Terminator squad, but it will also make mince meat of his bodyguard. His best application (arguably) is his ability to make Cultists into Plague Zombies free of charge. T3, Feel No Pain, Fearless, scoring models that are cheaper than Ork Boyz. They can't do anything in shooting, but they are objective-holders/grabbers unparalleled in our codex. A 'build-the-list-around me' kind of guy, especially given his very high entry fee and inability to embark on a cheap transport. Good choice overall - becomes very good if you pair him with Cultists.

Lucius - Why aren't you taking Kharn? All jokes aside, Lucius is a useful character that is in the similar price range of Kharn and Huron - i.e. cheap. Lucius is quite different to those two however, and you must understand that if you want to make him worthwhile. Lucius is a challenge-monster against anything that isn't T6 or has a +2 armour save. The reason being, his I6 and A-reflecting opponent's weapon skill as well as Shred makes him very good at killing enemy commanders, infantry, MEQs, etc - but not much else. Unless you are lucky, you won't typically succeed against +2 armoured opponents or monstrous creatures. Don't be tricked by Armour of Shrieking Souls and its AP2 - +2 armoured opponents typically carry weapons that will put Lucius out of his misery from one failed save anyway. With three wounds, anything that ignores his armour (i.e. almost every combat HQ) will only allow him to really cause a wound back once or maybe twice.

Hence, that particular ability shines against things that force armour saves and not invulnerable saves, i.e. hordes/infantry in general. He doesn't have to worry about hidden power-fists either because he will promptly single them out and kill them before they strike. Against a Space Marine Captain in power armour (how often does this happen though?), he will have 7 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3s with re-rolls, then wounding on 4s with re-rolls. That is more than likely a dead Captain, all before he gets to strike. In that sense, yes, he is quite good. Putting him up against Lelith Hesperax is hilarious. As I said before, he is not able to deal with certain units, and as such should be used against what he will do well against. A solid choice overall, but you need to be careful with him.

Summary! The most competitive options are probably Chaos Lords, Sorcerers and Huron. If you are wanting to adopt a theme, i.e. a single mark, then Huron probably shouldn't be your HQ (Undivided). The Chaos Lord will usually cost you more if you trick him out, the Sorcerer however doesn't need many upgrades to deal damage. As far as marked special characters, Kharn and Typhus are the best.

Good god. Will update later. I'm thinking as this post is already super-long, I'll just do separate posts for the other sections.

[Learn2Eel]

Here's the next part of my mini-tactica; as before, I will provide my opinion on the overall competitiveness of each unit, and then provide some example competitive builds. My opinions of competitiveness are based on other units in the same force organization slot. For those that want to avoid the wall of text, skip to the section that says Summary!.

EDIT: Note that this post is not yet complete.

Elites - I would typically say this is the one section of the codex that you don't need to worry about. You aren't as spoiled for competitive options that are necessary to a good army list as you will find in Fast Attack and Heavy Support, but that doesn't mean you can't make Elites work. Just remember that it is arguably the weakest section of the codex.

Chosen - A meltabomb more expensive than a standard Chaos Marine for a higher leadership, an extra attack base, and....five special melee/ranged weapons regardless of squad size. In reality, the latter is why you will take Chosen - think Sternguard mixed with Imperial Guard Special Weapons Teams and you have a pretty accurate summary of this unit. A five man unit with four plasma/melta guns will threaten damn near everything, and a Rhino gives them the mobility they crave. Quite cheap too. However, be aware that running Chosen in this way means you will lack the numbers to take hits back. I do not under any circumstances advise you to use them as a close combat unit - Terminators do it much better and are only slightly more expensive. Can be made Troops - and thus scoring - with Abaddon. Even the feared Dreadknight won't want to get close to a squad with four or five plasma guns. Also be aware that combining said plasma gun spam with Abaddon's Preferred Enemy bubble is both tasty and dirty - for you and your opponent, respectively. This isn't as good as it might seem at first though, as the afore-mentioned lack of numbers and expense-per-model ratios do not work in your favour. You are also relying on situational abilities and will not really faze horde or flyer-heavy armies. If you are in a marine-heavy meta though, go nuts. A decent choice overall - but they must be made to fit a specific role. If you want utility or close combat, go for Terminators or standard Chaos Marines.

Possessed - Nasty on the charge, and that is about it. They have an invulnerable save and have nasty extra abilities rolled for in each combat phase. Ultimately, less random than before, but still probably too expensive for what they do. Mind you, it can be funny having the equivalent of Rubric Possessed (+4 invulnerable saves) to troll Thousand Sons players with the fluff-abuse it represents. I might be selling them a bit short, but their lack of ranged options limits their role, and in reality, Berzerkers or Terminators will do the same job more efficiently and less randomly. Marks give you interesting options to work with, and the high base strength is nice. However, again, outshone by other melee-oriented options. A mediocre choice overall.

Chaos Terminators - They are Terminators, they are cheaper than the Loyalist equivalents when kitted out similarly, and are very customizable. We don't have TH/SS flying out our backsides but, hey, who needs them? The popular options with Chaos Terminators revolve around high numbers of combi-weapons - in this role, Chaos Terminators are cheap, durable, and provide some very nasty firepower - keep in mind that this is situational and dependent usually on deep strike scatter. A typical squad loadout is three Terminators, with three combi meltas/plasmas, one chainfist, and a mix of power fists and power weapons. This kind of unit can threaten virtually any target and is quite cheap. It will also play mind games with your opponent, especially if they have valuable units in their back-field.

In general though, Terminators are similar to Chosen in the sense that they are able to fit a wide variety of roles depending on you outfit them - unlike Chosen however, Terminators don't suffer from being specialized to one particular kind of role, and they don't have to worry as much if they are in small squads. The aforementioned three combi-weapons/chainfist/two power fists kit out for a three-man squad will do the job very well. And let us not forget that you can use them in the classic 'CHARGE!' role; stick them in a Land Raider, attach a Chaos Lord/Abaddon/Kharn/Typhus, give them the appropriate mark, run them at your opponents biggest damn target. For those that like their eggs in one basket, but as always, devastating when it works. Always a good bodyguard unit. Marks and Icons can be quite nasty on them - T5 Terminators, +4 invulnerable save Terminators, I5 Terminators with claws and Feel No Pain, etc. Costs add up quickly though. Overall, a good choice.

Helbrute - Hmm. Cheaper than Loyalist options, but lack the two most competitive options that Loyalist Dreadnoughts get (Drop Pods and dual-autocannon load-outs). However, these guys will still do their job well - they have a lot of juicy options that can make them very deadly against certain enemies. Remembering that you come with Extra Armour base through your Crazed rules, you get quite a good deal on the surface. However, the Helbrute suffers from a lack of focus - you don't have any in-codex means of getting them into your opponents lines quickly, and to make a ranged platform you have to take a missile launcher with your other weapon option, which limits your effectiveness. The Helbrute encourages having a ranged weapon and keeping the close combat weapon. This is fine, but the inability to give it that focus really reduces the Helbrute's viability. However, I don't mind something that is the minimum triple-digit cost for what it does. Ultimately, this is a unit that you should not rely on - send it at your opponent and hope it kills something valuable before it dies. If your army has a lot of more threatening targets, you may even find this guy can do a lot of unexpected damage to your opponent. A solid choice overall.

Mutilators - I'm not sure what to think about these guys. If you put one next to a Paladin, you get for the same cost - one less WS, one less LD, cause Fear, no psychic abilities, no force weapon, but instead you get paired combat weapons (and thus 3 attacks base) i.e. everyone gets chainfists/lightning claws/power axes/power mauls/power swords. At face value, this seems like a fantastic deal - unlike the Paladin, the Mutilator can essentially deal with any threat in combat and take withering amounts of firepower. However, that is just face value. Mutilators have no decent transport options and with Slow and Purposeful it is unwise to march them up the field. Unlike Paladins, they have no guns and thus rely on getting into combat. They can Deep Strike, but that is obviously risky. They can never be made to score like Paladins can, and they are capped at a squad size of three. As such, I am torn on these guys - they sound great at first, but how they would actually work in game is an entirely different matter. Marks are a good option for Mutilators - any of them can be useful, but Nurgle and Khorne will probably be the most common. Nurgle makes them immune to S8-S9 instant-death - which is what will usually target them if Obliterators are a good example - whilst Khorne increases their attacks so they can shell out ludicrous amounts of damage. A mediocre choice overall.

Now for the juicy part - Cult units! Remembering that each unit can (and probably should) be made scoring through the use of the appropriate HQ with the appropriate mark.

Khorne Berzerkers - Blood for the Blood God! This sums them up pretty well. Get them into combat = profit. Getting them into combat is the killer though, what with Overwatch, paying for a transport, having to endure at least one round of shooting when they jump out of said transport, etc. The options are typically unnecessary on these guys - the ability to take multiple plasma pistols is fine, but the real deal for them is chainaxes. It is a small points increase to make all of their (many) combat attacks AP4. Do you really want to kill make Dire Avengers cry? Do you want to make an Imperial Guard player feel insignificant for putting Carapace Armour on his Veterans? Do you want to do more against your main.....wait, that's right. Against Space Marines, AP4 will not help you. In that sense, think about what you will face and whether or not the upgrade is worth it. Typically, +4 armour units will get crushed by your sheer weight of S5 attacks anyway.

Also, what do you give the Skull Champion? A power fist so the unit can more reliably handle vehicles/walkers? Or a power sword so you can butcher MEQs? Ultimately, Berzerkers are good at what they do and not much else - they will also typically be killed quickly by other armies dedicated close-combat units. Of course, such armies will typically be using much more expensive, non-scoring units in that role, hency why Berzerkers do fill a nice little niche. They will power through standard tactical marines, but will be blasted by Terminators. Remember that, and you can make them work. And get them a Rhino! A solid choice overall.

Thousand Sons - The core of my themed army lists, and obviously my favourite cult unit fluff-wise. However, they are also sadly seen as the least competitive of the cult units. As much as an AP3 bolter and a +4 invulnerable save sounds great on infantry, they have quite a few issues. They are highly expensive for what they do in the sense that cover saves are readily available in 6th Edition that will largely negate their AP3 boltguns. And again, they are still just boltguns - because of their cost, you can't have a lot of them to make up for their S4. A +4 invulnerable save has many obvious applications, but again, cover is readily found in 6th Edition, and a smart opponent will learn to simply shoot their anti-infantry (i.e. standard boltguns) at them - they die like any other space marine in this way. Mind you though, I've had a squad of these guys beat back an Assault Terminator squad twice in the same game without suffering a casualty. If your meta is dominated by lots of low AP weaponry, this works a charm.

They are also Fearless and, unlike other Cult units, they come with Veterans of the Long War in their basic cost. That sounds great, until you realize that they are terrible in combat - i.e. even worse than Tactical Marines. Thousand Sons do not have grenades and thus, outside of meltabombs on an already expensive aspiring sorcerer, they cannot deal with vehicles outside of glancing AV10 (which is unlikely). The Sorcerer is limited by having access to middling powers, and has no defense against Perils of the Warp. The only power you actually want is Doombolt, but you have a 50% chance of rolling it - the other power isn't all that helpful. It is cool to have a mini-psyker leading your unit though, and he even comes with a force weapon. He is easy prey for challenges though, but you will assuredly laugh your pants off the one time he kills a much more expensive HQ through a lucky force-weapon wound whilst tanking due to his +4 invulnerable save (which I've seen happen). As much as I love them, they aren't that great - over-priced is the most accurate description I can give these poor automatons. Stick them in a Rhino so they can shoot quicker, or combine them with Ahriman for a nasty flanking unit. A mediocre choice overall.

Plague Marines - T5 with Feel No Pain, 2 special weapons with no minimum squad requirement. What more needs to be said? Poisoned close-combat weapons. Work best with either two meltaguns or two plasma guns in a rhino typically. As they are a Nurgle unit, I wouldn't recommend them to the OP though obviously. Again, not much needs to be said about these guys. They will do their job and do it well. A very good choice overall.

Noise Marines - This is very much a unit that you need to decide their role before you outfit them. If you want a close-support unit, give them the extra close-combat weapon, stick a Doom Siren on the champion and give them a rhino. They will typically make their points back the second the Doom Siren unloads on a Space Marine squad and/or charges. I5 makes them a nasty proposition for Space Marines by killing them before they can strike back with all of their attacks, but remember that I5 won't matter against units like Wyches. If you, however, want a ranged-artillery unit, beef them up to 10 models, give them all Sonic Blasters and one a Blastmaster, as well as an Icon of Excess. Sit them on an objective and they will blast (pun intended) their opponents into dust.

In either role, they are quite efficient - their Sonic Blasters will absolutely reave low armour-save armies such as Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Orks. By reave, I mean 'annihilate' - all of their weapons ignoring cover makes them a brutal unit to use against horde armies. They also cause Pinning tests (or is that just the Blastmaster?). They work exceedingly well when combined with a Slaaneshi Sorcerer - the Slaaneshi Sorcerer can make whatever your Noise Marines shoot at die in abundance. Ultimately, which role you pick is really up to you - both are good, and both will be carried out well. I would typically recommend the ranged role, as shooting tends to be king in 6th, and Noise Marines do it better than any of the other Elites or Troops choices. A very good choice overall.

Summary! Terminators, Plague Marines and Noise Marines are the best bet for a competitive army list.

[Caitsidhe]

RULE 1: 1750 points
RULE 2: No allies if I can avoid them
RULE 3: NO NURGLE. Hate painting it and hate using it.
And lastly if at all possible... would like to only use 1 god mark in the army if any are used, and I would like to use warp talons.

The problem at hand is that "competitive" doesn't necessarily fit well with the limitations you are insisting upon. The point level for the game is fine, but you are really making the thing near impossible when you dismiss allies, outlaw Nurgle, and want to use one of the two WORST unit in the game. I would suggest even having Warp Talons in a list, by default, makes said list NOT competitive. I'm not being snide here. I'm just being as clear as I can possibly be, "there are no truly competitive lists" which meet all of these criteria.