Tyranids in tournaments, 6th edition

[Learn2Eel]

Hahaha that is a brutal tactic. Thanks dude You've just given me an army list idea!

[daboarder]

You got it Infiltrate, go second, Charge and laugh well they go "NOOOOOOOO" and the swarmlord walks up the table to mop up

Or you face a player who knows what they are doing, sets up at the maximum forward deployment, walks backwards first turn into cover and proceeds to drop templates, rapid fire, overwatch on you before striking first in combat, dead stealer list.

[Learn2Eel]

You're assuming your opponent would have cover, readily available firepower, line of sight, that the genestealers don't have cover, that there isn't a horde of them, etc. Lord help your opponent if Night Fighting is on. If they move back, they are just giving the Genestealers good saves. If they don't move back, they risk being charged by some of the most deadly close combat troops in the entire game.
And what happens if they are a mech army? Are they going to jump out on Turn 1 and risk exposure from all the other units the Tyranids have just to kill Genestealers? And the funny thing is, if they don't ignore the Genestealers, that's either a few dead squads on Turn 1 through transports being surrounded and wrecked or suffering nasty casualties through the subsequent explosions.
It's a good tactic. It doesn't matter whether it is "someone that knows what they are doing". Genestealers are p*ss cheap and can be spammed in droves whilst the Tyranid player can still have a significant chunk of points to spend on other nasty units that can't be ignored, such as the Swarmlord, Hormagaunts, Tervigons, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, etc. Even a few 10-man Genestealer broods will scare the snot out of your opponent and make them have to prioritize between the advancing deathstars or the small deadly combat units near their deployment zone. It's a scare tactic, and an effective one.

[daboarder]

You're assuming your opponent would have cover, readily available firepower, line of sight, that the genestealers don't have cover, that there isn't a horde of them, etc. Lord help your opponent if Night Fighting is on. If they move back, they are just giving the Genestealers good saves. If they don't move back, they risk being charged by some of the most deadly close combat troops in the entire game.
It's a good tactic. It doesn't matter whether it is "someone that knows what they are doing". Genestealers are p*ss cheap and can be spammed in droves whilst the Tyranid player can still have a significant chunk of points to spend on other nasty units that can't be ignored, such as the Swarmlord, Hormagaunts, Tervigons, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, etc. Even a few 10-man Genestealer broods will scare the snot out of your opponent and make them have to prioritize between the advancing deathstars or the small deadly combat units near their deployment zone. It's a scare tactic, and an effective one.

So basically what you saying is that, I'm assuming the game is being played on anything but a flat plank of wood.

Its a bad tactic that will get you tabled and crushed against any opponent whose played nids before, personally I grin like a madman and know whats coming whenever I see that list because it is always a one sided slaughterfest.

Stealers are NOT p*ss cheap, they're overpriced that's what they are, cost more than a marine for no ranged offense or armour to speak of and the lack of grenades means they should ALWAYS be getting smashed before even getting a chance to strike. If your opponent is really stupid enough to stand in the open against a stealer hoard then more power to you but that doe not make it a good list.

As to your other comments well proves you don't really know what your talking about really.

10 stealers don't scare anyone, 20 stealers don't scare anyone. and if your running more then your loosing out on all those "support options" you've listed.

Nids can be run decently in 6th but stealer spam, which is what was being discussed, is just asking to get face crushed.

Again: Force the opponent back during deployment, fire discipline and cover kill stealer lists badly, there's a reason conventional wisdom claimed they needed to be outflanked in 5th and all 6th changed was that they can't even do that effectively anymore.

note: I say this as a Nid player and a CSM player.

Edit: On another note PLEASE break up your posts a bit, its almost impossible to read them when they are just a huge text wall.

[Learn2Eel]

Cover is not everywhere on a game board, and not everyone will be able to get all of their models into cover on the first turn. Remember the charge rules? The assaulting unit only strikes at I1 if they have to go through cover to get to the unit. If you are moving into cover - i.e. not starting in it, then I severely doubt you will be able to get all of your models into cover. Hence, the Genestealers will not strike at I1. There are also such things as buildings which block line of sight.

Seriously? How does taking two smallish units that cost little to nothing, even in a 1500 point game, that will draw severe amounts of firepower and, if they have cover, be able to take it fairly well equate to a bad tactic? If you understand Tyranids, you know that the army works through units not only supporting one another but by providing a wide range of threats for your opponent. Hence why the best way to protect a unit of Hive Guard is to have other units that are of equal significance to your opponent. If your opponent wastes their shooting on the Genestealers, that gives you a turn to move your Zoanthropes and Hive Guard up and start blowing up their tanks and infantry. If they don't shoot them, they risk being mauled in an assault. Tyranids are a thinking-army, one where you can't just spam the best units and hope for the best. Each has to work in tandem with the other. Genestealers, in this fashion, have the role of harrassment and drawing fire away from other targets. Swarming the board in Hormagaunts works in a sense too, but it is a different kind of tactic.

Over-priced? Lol. Ok. Sure buddy, whatever you say. For their profile, the damage they do, and the oh so literal fire they draw from your opponents units that are thus not used on other more important units, they are hardly overpriced. Even despite the Outflank nerf, they are still the best combat unit in the game point-for-point or at least in the top five. They will mess up almost any unit of the same points value min an assault. And unlike Terminators or the dedicated combat units of most other armies, they don't need to pay the points for a transport either. So they can't charge when they come on. Big whoop. They can't do what was regarded as one of the most brutal assault tactics in the game anymore. That's fine. Run them into cover. They have Fleet. They can move very quickly. Plan for the next turn and actually think about minimizing line of sight and fire to the unit. It doesn't take a genius to work out that cover works both ways and that a significant amount of terrain will also mean a lot of LOS-blocking terrain features. Infiltrate gives them pretty free reign to deploy as they see fit to match this.

Lol. Ok. They don't cost more than a marine - marine typically referring to Tactical Marine. They cost more than a Chaos Marine. They don't need ranged offense, and that's not the point. They have Infiltrate and Fleet, making them horrendously fast for a close combat unit - unlike Terminators (which they mulch) they don't need to fork out 200+ points to get where they need to go. And as for lack of grenades, please tell me how they will always be charging a unit that has all of their models in cover. Please, I'm waiting. I'm sorry, you are missing the point. That first turn charge trick may not work against a bunker list that deploys everything in cover, but if they have deployed everything in cover, they are sitting back and out of rapid-fire range anyway. Unless your game board is entirely covered in terrain, the Stealers will find a target in their very large threat range (added with Move Through Cover) that they don't need to charge through cover to get through. If even one model is out of cover, the Genestealers won't strike at I1. You are assuming the worst on all accounts. I've played regularly and been to a number of LGS. If you are telling me that people will be able to get all of their infantry units into cover after moving back, then I'd like to see where you play. Even on game-boards with lots of terrain, those foot-slogging lists you are talking about will not be able to get all of their units back before they get assaulted.

I'm sorry, it is quite clear to me that you always emphasize the negatives. Genestealers got nerfed by not being able to charge from Outflank. True. Does that make them terrible? Hardly. Once they get to assault, and again, that isn't as hard as you make it out to be, they will still do the same kind of damage they did per-model as before. Unlike before though, we can't just mindlessly go "Outflank = profit". You also conveniently ignore that they too get the benefits of cover.

Ummm. Yes they do. They scare your opponent enough that they have to shoot them. Put 10 Genestealers up against 5 Standard Terminators. Do the maths. Even assuming no charges, the Genestealers average 2 dead Terminators a turn before they get to strike. When the Terminators hit back, they do 2-3 kills back. It comes close. And guess what? That's a 140 point Genestealer unit up against a 200 point Terminator unit. Given that they have Move Through Cover, Fleet, etc, it is also likely they are the ones that will charge - which leads to the Terminators getting killed almost without difficulty. Hence why they are commonly seen as out-performing almost any other close-combat unit in the game. Apply that logic to what your opponent will think. Would you ignore them and let them decimate a more expensive unit and wreak havoc in your backfield? Or do you focus on them so that they can't threaten you? Option 2 wins. And thus, they do their job either way. 20 of them will run you around 280 points. That's less than a fifth of a 1500 point army list, and if you Infiltrate and get them cover or LOS blocking terrain close to your opponent, they are going to either soak up a lot of damage or deal it back quickly. Thus allowing your ranged fire-support to move up and crack your opponents tanks. And plus, 30 Genestealers leaves more than enough room for three broods of Hive Guard/Zoanthropes, a few Tervigons and a Flyrant. Not that 30 Genestealers is necessary, but you get the picture.

I'm not talking about Genestealer spam. I'm talking about using them as distraction units, which they will do very well. A 10-man brood of them in cover might not soak up as much damage as 35 Cultists in cover, but they sure as hell threaten a lot more targets. Just because Genestealers aren't the thoughtless "put down on board, survive, shoot" unit that Space Marines are does not make them bad. Hence why even 5th Edition Tyranids were deadly in the right hands. I'm not saying 'Nids don't need a power-boost, that goes without saying, but a defining feature of them is the strategy. I can't throw Zoanthropes into a list like say Purifiers. It's a hard codex to use but, like Eldar, it can be just as nasty in the right hands.

[daboarder]

Cover is not everywhere on a game board, and not everyone will be able to get all of their models into cover on the first turn. Remember the charge rules? The assaulting unit only strikes at I1 if they have to go through cover to get to the unit. If you are moving into cover - i.e. not starting in it, then I severely doubt you will be able to get all of your models into cover. Hence, the Genestealers will not strike at I1. There are also such things as buildings which block line of sight.

remember the charge rules? You mean the ones that state you must take the shortest path possible to get into contact with an enemy model? and therefore only the closest enemy models actually need to be in the cover?

Seriously? How does taking two smallish units that cost little to nothing, even in a 1500 point game, that will draw severe amounts of firepower and, if they have cover, be able to take it fairly well equate to a bad tactic? If you understand Tyranids, you know that the army works through units not only supporting one another but by providing a wide range of threats for your opponent. Hence why the best way to protect a unit of Hive Guard is to have other units that are of equal significance to your opponent. If your opponent wastes their shooting on the Genestealers, that gives you a turn to move your Zoanthropes and Hive Guard up and start blowing up their tanks and infantry. If they don't shoot them, they risk being mauled in an assault. Tyranids are a thinking-army, one where you can't just spam the best units and hope for the best. Each has to work in tandem with the other. Genestealers, in this fashion, have the role of harrassment and drawing fire away from other targets. Swarming the board in Hormagaunts works in a sense too, but it is a different kind of tactic.

Over 300 pts (your proposed 20 stealers) is not "Units that cost little to nothing for 20 T4 bodies that have tissue paper for armour and no grenades.

Over-priced? Lol. Ok. Sure buddy, whatever you say. For their profile, the damage they do, and the oh so literal fire they draw from your opponents units that are thus not used on other more important units, they are hardly overpriced. Even despite the Outflank nerf, they are still the best combat unit in the game point-for-point or at least in the top five. They will mess up almost any unit of the same points value min an assault. And unlike Terminators or the dedicated combat units of most other armies, they don't need to pay the points for a transport either. So they can't charge when they come on. Big whoop. They can't do what was regarded as one of the most brutal assault tactics in the game anymore. That's fine. Run them into cover. They have Fleet. They can move very quickly. Plan for the next turn and actually think about minimizing line of sight and fire to the unit. It doesn't take a genius to work out that cover works both ways and that a significant amount of terrain will also mean a lot of LOS-blocking terrain features. Infiltrate gives them pretty free reign to deploy as they see fit to match this.

They do damage in assault and have no grenades, how do you not understand the implications of this? Its a unit that is designed to strike first, pays a premium for a high I and then doesn't get to use it.

Lol. Ok. They don't cost more than a marine - marine typically referring to Tactical Marine. They cost more than a Chaos Marine. They don't need ranged offense, and that's not the point. They have Infiltrate and Fleet, making them horrendously fast. And as for lack of grenades, please tell me how they will always be charging a unit that has all of their models in cover. Please, I'm waiting. I'm sorry, you are missing the point. That first turn charge trick may not work against a bunker list that deploys everything in cover, but if they have deployed everything in cover, they are sitting back and out of rapid-fire range anyway. Unless your game board is entirely covered in terrain, the Stealers will find a target in their very large threat range (added with Move Through Cover) that they don't need to charge through cover to get through. If even one model is out of cover, the Genestealers won't strike at I1. You are assuming the worst on all accounts. I've played regularly and been to a number of LGS. If you are telling me that people will be able to get all of their infantry units into cover after moving back, then I'd like to see where you play. Even on game-boards with lots of terrain, those foot-slogging lists you are talking about will not be able to get all of their units back before they get assaulted.

Because people aren't stupid and will hang you on the charge movement rules by forcing you to charge through cover, sure you might not have to 1 once in 6 charges, but thats not good.

I'm sorry, it is quite clear to me that you always emphasize the negatives. Genestealers got nerfed by not being able to charge from Outflank. True. Does that make them terrible? Hardly. Once they get to assault, and again, that isn't as hard as you make it out to be, they will still do the same kind of damage they did per-model as before. Unlike before though, we can't just mindlessly go "Outflank = profit". You also conveniently ignore that they too get the benefits of cover.

I addressed the negatives of a flawed tactic, a tactic that is flawed due to the inherent drawbacks of the unit itself. genestealer spam is what we have been talking about remember? I can go back three or four posts and get the quote if you want.

Ummm. Yes they do. They scare your opponent enough that they have to shoot them. Put 10 Genestealers up against 5 Standard Terminators. Do the maths. Even assuming no charges, the Genestealers average 2 dead Terminators a turn before they get to strike. When the Terminators hit back, they do 2-3 kills back. It comes close. And guess what? That's a 140 point Genestealer unit up against a 200 point Terminator unit. Hence why they are commonly seen as out-performing almost any other close-combat unit in the game. Apply that logic to what your opponent will think. Would you ignore them and let them decimate a more expensive unit and wreak havoc in your backfield? Or do you focus on them so that they can't threaten you? Option 2 wins. And thus, they do their job either way. 20 of them will run you around 280 points. That's less than a fifth of a 1500 point army list, and if you Infiltrate and get them cover or LOS blocking terrain close to your opponent, they are going to either soak up a lot of damage or deal it back quickly. Thus allowing your ranged fire-support to move up and crack your opponents tanks. And plus, 30 Genestealers leaves more than enough room for three broods of Hive Guard/Zoanthropes, a few Tervigons and a Flyrant. Not that 30 Genestealers is necessary, but you get the picture.

10 stealers in game conditions will always loose to the terminators, why, because they have guns that shred you!

I'm not talking about Genestealer spam. I'm talking about using them as distraction units, which they will do very well. A 10-man brood of them in cover might not soak up as much damage as 35 Cultists in cover, but they sure as hell threaten a lot more targets.

I'm just curious, in regards to that Swarmlord/Flying Hive Tyrant mix with the Genestealers, how are you getting first turn charges? Is it via Infiltrate/Scout and going second? Just curious.

I would love to do Tyranids, I especially wouldn't mind running the Swarmlord. Give him two Tyrant Guards, and he will wreck all manner of face (provided he gets Iron Arm - at least against Grey Knights anyway).

Look you admitted yourself 3 posts ago that you don't have experience with this style of list. This means that your arguments are conceptual so why are you not listening to the problems proposed by a player who has been on BOTH sides of this list for over 50 games.

Again please us some for of grammar, even if its not correct you need some appropriate spacing for your text.

look you can deny that cover is a major factor all you want but against any smart opponent your stealers are going to be charging through it. Don't believe me if you don't want to, go out buy a nid list, play it, and have fun or don't its no skin off my back. But after you have you'll know what I'm talking about.

[Learn2Eel]

Yes. Hence why your point that if your units deployed right up front and moved back into cover is fewlish. If they are moving back, isn't it logical to assume that the closest ones to the Genestealers will be the ones out in the open? If you are moving away from a unit, unless you are right next to the terrain to begin with and get a lucky roll and your troops are deployed in a formation to suit that, the closest ones to the Genestealers will NOT be in cover.

No, it is under 300 points for 20 Genestealers. You have the codex, you should know their points values.
You forgot to mention "that have WS6, I6, A2, LD10, Rending, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, and don't have to worry about Synapse". The tactical applications of that for their cost are fine by me.

I understand it perfectly. Not all charges are through cover. And even then, it depends on what you charge. If you charge 10 basic Chaos Marines, they would average about 5-6 hits, two-three wounds, one-two failed armour saves. Then you hit them back and still murder them. What is this ungodly weakness that the lack of grenades gives them again? And you also forget that their speed means they can be very selective about their targets. There's a unit out of cover and one in cover, both of equal melee capability. Which do you charge? Having a 6" movement and a 2D6" re-rollable charge distance gives them a significant area of threat.

I would hardly say one in six charges won't be through cover. I've watched many battle reports, observed many games and played lots myself. The number of times an opponent absolutely had to charge through cover i.e. no other target was in range is nowhere near as frequent as you think. It might be in the areas you play, but I've been to a range of stores and rarely have I seen what you describe in terms of sheer commodity. Genestealers will also do this well against a mech army - they don't suffer the grenade limitation against vehicles, and unless your opponents transports are in terrain, if your Hive Guard pop the transports the Genestealers are going to have a fun time butchering what was in inside.

Every tactic has inherent weaknesses, every build has hard and soft counters. Every army list can be beaten. This is no different. If you ran an entire army of Genestealers, then yes, I would agree with you that it will not win many games. But in 5th Edition, Genestealers weren't even used in great numbers either usually. You might have seen 30, but usually around the 15-25 mark. Thus why two decent sized units is hardly a bad tactic. They threaten well above their points range, and in cover, they are quite like any other light infantry unit of similar cost. Their inherent speed and Infiltrate gives them a very welcome boost and threat potential.

If they can shoot you. If they choose to shoot at you. If you don't have cover. You are looking at the basics and not the details. How mobile are Terminators? Not very. Genestealers can exploit this with LoS. And before you say "Land Raider", how many points are they thus wasting on the Terminators to make them mobile? A lot. And the funny thing is, the Genestealers still have the better threat range because Outflank/Scout gives them a free movement. Even on Overwatch, the Terminators only average one hit and maybe one kill - remembering that S4 still needs 4s to wound Genestealers.
And after all that, once the Genestealers get into combat, which they would in the hands of a skilled opponent, they will beat the Terminators and be cheaper too.
They are very much a thinking-unit, as I said before.

How is asking how they were getting first turn charges indicative of a lack of experience with this kind of army list? You are taking my comment out of context. I was asking for clarification on how they were getting first-turn assaults, as the wording of their posts seemed to indicate they were charging on the first player turn i.e. before their opponent had their first turn. When it was clarified, there was no issue, as I know exactly how that tactic works. I've seen a similar strategy done with units of a similar kind. I'd never really thought about using the army before as I would look for ways to have it gel with other Tyranid units I would like to field. However, now that I thought about it some more, I can see how it would work with the other units I would like to field. Hence why I had an idea for an army list.

In all actuality, you talk about experience but yet you ignore mine.
What is wrong with my grammar exactly? If you want to go down that route, your grammar and spelling has been appalling so far. Don't complain about something if you yourself haven't fixed it.

[daboarder]

In all actuality, you talk about experience but yet you ignore mine.
What is wrong with my grammar exactly? If you want to go down that route, your grammar and spelling has been appalling so far. Don't complain about something if you yourself haven't fixed it.

What? I don't even.....HUH?

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Wow, this thread got far more heated than I had expected it to.

I know I plan to tweak my list a bit, for example not take cluster spines for my tervigon anymore, as that left me without overwatch options in the game. One of these days I wanna run around with a flyinng list, gargoyls, harpies, and flyrants, just for fun, see how it does.

The very last game in my tournament, I could have won though if I had killed his firewarriors instead of a crisis suit, but hey, we all make mistakes.

[daboarder]

Wow, this thread got far more heated than I had expected it to.

I know I plan to tweak my list a bit, for example not take cluster spines for my tervigon anymore, as that left me without overwatch options in the game. One of these days I wanna run around with a flyinng list, gargoyls, harpies, and flyrants, just for fun, see how it does.

The very last game in my tournament, I could have won though if I had killed his firewarriors instead of a crisis suit, but hey, we all make mistakes.

Personally I think the choice of cluster or salvo depends on what your using your tervigon for.

If its as a 3 brb power psychic battery then yeah the spines are better as you get to do something in overwatch. However if your primarily using your tervigon to buff your troops with catalyst and provide solid scoring and troop spawning and not worrying about how many powers you use then you are better with the cluster because the large blast is well worth the drawback of no snap firing IF you are using it on a regular basis.