Chaos Daemons

[Lord of the Dead]

Ive been thinking about getting into CD for a few months but my local gamers don't really know much about them. Just wondering if it would be worth getting into them or not. what do they offer and whats there downfall.

[Tepogue]

At the moment there are 2 divisions in Chaos Demons.

Tzeentch and the other guys.

Tzeentch is over powered or just amazing depending on who you ask.

ignoring Demon Princes/Greater demons for the moment.

Flamers, Horrors, Screamers can all act upon enemy models on the turn they arrive. Flamers can hurt anything in the game on a 4+, They wound any model on a 4+ with no armor/no cover save. They inflict a glancing hit against any vehicle on a 4+.
Horrors are the only Troop choices with ranged attacks so they can affect models on the turn they land
Screamers can do their turbo boost/drive by hits on the turn they land.

VS The other guys

They have to land and then can affect enemy models on the following turn.
I can't argue, Fiends, Crushers, Bloodletters are not effective at what they do. BUT the simple fact is that the Tzeentch demons all get 1 more turn to affect the enemy.

[Learn2Eel]

Ive been thinking about getting into CD for a few months but my local gamers don't really know much about them. Just wondering if it would be worth getting into them or not. what do they offer and whats there downfall.

Chaos Daemons are a very tricky army to use - arguably the most difficult in the game. The main reason is due to the fact that the entire army must always deep strike - no unit in the codex can get around this, and there is little way to minimize scatter for them. Before deployment, you must divide your army list into two halves that are as equal as possible in terms of number of units - you select one half to be your 'Daemonic Assault' and roll to see if it is the half that comes down on a 3+. On a 1 or 2, the other half comes down and then every unit that wasn't part of the first-turn wave must be rolled for and deep struck as normal from turn 2. This means that on the first turn, your army is going to be at half strength and can very well end up in a lot of positions that are unsavoury - this is especially tricky for melee-oriented Daemons, as you will want them close to the enemy or in cover but run a greater risk of mishaps and dangerous terrain checks.

Despite this, once you do get them down, Daemons can hit harder than any other army depending on what you use. The entire army has Eternal Warrior, Fearless, Fear and instead of armour saves you have invulnerable saves. This means that even your multi-wound squads, such as Bloodcrushers, can never be subject to instant-death. As far as not having armour saves goes, you will find Daemons tend to die very quickly to small arms fire, but are highly durable against plasma weaponry and the like. Daemons have some devastating melee and shooting units, but again, the randomness of deep striking and daemonic assault means they are not ultimately reliable.

Chaos Daemons also have access to more flying monstrous creatures than any other army in the game in the form of greater daemons, and flying monstrous creatures are awesome. You have the Bloodthirster - an expensive but godly combat monster; the Lord of Change - an even more expensive devastating shooting unit; Fateweaver - a named Lord of Change, a weak combat unit that is even better than a Lord of Change in shooting and gives any friendly Daemon unit (including himself) within 6" the ability to re-roll all failed armour, cover and invulnerable saves; and, last but not least, a winged Daemon Prince, which can be kitted out for whatever you need. A current tournament list for Chaos Daemons running about revolves around Fateweaver, three flying Daemon Princes marked for Tzeentch with some nasty shooting powers and either a Lord of Change or a Bloodthirster. Very hard to kill, especially if kept close together, and put out insane amounts of damage.

Each Daemon is a patron of a particular god - I don't know how familiar you are with the Chaos Gods, but typically this is how they work; Khorne Daemons tend to all have power weapons and furious charge, making them combat-centric and fantastic at it if they can get there; Slaanesh Daemons are the fastest typically, with Fleet, Hit and Run, Rending and the like all common traits, and they tend to have loads of attacks but are comparatively fragile, meaning they are a fun combat alternative to Khorne Daemons; Nurgle Daemons are the toughest, but the slowest, as they have higher toughness and Feel No Pain, and also commonly have poisoned weapons, making them work very well against any non-vehicle unit, and; Tzeentch Daemons, the only Daemons that have quantifiable shooting and tend to have the best invulnerable saves, but are typically horrible in combat.

For competitive themed army lists, Tzeentch is currently the king - as Daemons cannot assault when they arrive from Deep Strike, coupled with their innate low durability compared to popular armies such as Space Marines, assault-oriented Daemons tend to die or be severely crippled before they can charge and wreak havoc. Tzeentch Daemons, on the other hand, don't have to worry about this restriction; they have the only Troops in the codex that can shoot, and also have one of the nastiest shooting units in the game right now. Strangely too, Tzeentch Daemons also have the best close combat unit in the codex, as much as that doesn't really seem to make sense. Remember to grab the appropriate White Dwarf Update, where certain Daemon units were updated and brought more in line with (we can assume) the upcoming codex rules. Two units in particular, Flamers and Screamers of Tzeentch, are now the two best units in the codex and some of the most feared units in the entire game.

Flamers don't seem so menacing until you realize they have the best template weapon in the entire game - anything it touches either takes a wound on a 4+ with no armour or cover saves allowed, or, if it is a vehicle, suffers a glancing hit on a 4+. They also have two wounds at T4 with a 5+ invulnerable save, making them fairly durable. Remember how all Daemons must Deep-Strike? Yeah, you have the template of doom and it can pop up right next to any unit you want it to if you wish to take the risk. Flamers also have access to another ranged weapon, which is a 3-shot S4 AP4 weapon using their BS4 - in case you are out of template range. Remembering all of that, they are also Jump Infantry - your opponent simply will not be able to get away from them. The best part is the stigma that Tzeentch Daemons suck in combat and how that affects people's tactics when attempting to deal with Flamers - per the Wall of Death rule, charging Flamers results in D3 automatic hits using the template weapon's rules per Flamer.

For reference, a 9-Daemon Flamer unit will put out an average of 18 automatic hits and either 9 wounds ignoring armour and cover or 9 glancing hits on a vehicle. Put simply, you will wipe out almost entire squads if they attempt to charge you. Also, this means that if they fail the charge, due to the closest models dying, the Flamers can simply move 12" and destroy something else! They are crazily cheap for what they do, and a 6 man squad (which is well balanced) will run you under 150 points. Combine this with Daemonic Assault, and you have one of the best means of attaining First Blood in the entire game. Terminators, Tactical Marines, monstrous creatures - you name it, they will probably kill it when they come down.

Screamers are the other unit, and the one that gets the most attention. Screamers are like Flamers stat-wise - two wounds, T4, 5+ invulnerable save. Unlike Flamers, Screamers are WS3, are Jetbikes (meaning they have a 5+ cover save if they move) and can thus Turbo-Boost. This is where the unit becomes very interesting. As they are Jetbikes, they can Turbo-Boost on the turn they arrive - for any reason you want, you can mitigate a bad Deep Strike roll by moving to a better position, you can move into cover or behind cover to get away from enemy units, etc. They also have the ability to 'slash' units they fly over - a single unit they fly over suffers D3 automatic hits at S4 AP-. This may not seem like much, but against Tactical Marines, a 6-Daemon squad 12 hits, 6 wounds and 2 failed armour saves. On top of that, the Screamers receive a 4+ cover save. Remembering also that Turbo-Boosting allows you to move 24" in any direction. Sounds nasty right? The best is yet to come. Remember how Tzeentch Daemons suck in combat? Each Screamer is WS3, has 3 attacks and their close combat attacks are resolved at S5, AP2, Armourbane. Let that sink in for a while. Remember how fast they are, being Jetbikes, and they can Turbo-Boost when they Deep Strike?

Yeah, like Flamers, your opponent won't be able to get away from them. A squad of 6 Screamers will, on average, wipe out a 5-man Terminator unit with impunity. Did I mention Screamers also have Hammer of Wrath and are I4? A 6-man unit of Screamers, against say Tactical Marines, averages 6 Hammer of Wraths hits, 3 Wounds, one failed armour save at I10, then 24 attacks for 12 hits, 8 wounds and 8 dead Tactical Marines. In return, they will suffer about 8 hits back (assuming Sergeant with chainsword), 4 wounds, and two or three failed saves for one dead Screamer. They've almost wiped out an entire squad, and are quite a bit cheaper. Again, like Flamers, they are inexpensive as well. For lulz, a 6-Daemon unit averages 8 wounds against standard Terminators, resulting in all of them dying - if they have power fist, well, too bad, they won't get to strike back.

Anyway, enough about Tzeentch Daemons.

At the moment there are 2 divisions in Chaos Demons.

Tzeentch and the other guys.

Tzeentch is over powered or just amazing depending on who you ask.

ignoring Demon Princes/Greater demons for the moment.

Flamers, Horrors, Screamers can all act upon enemy models on the turn they arrive. Flamers can hurt anything in the game on a 4+, They wound any model on a 4+ with no armor/no cover save. They inflict a glancing hit against any vehicle on a 4+.
Horrors are the only Troop choices with ranged attacks so they can affect models on the turn they land
Screamers can do their turbo boost/drive by hits on the turn they land.

VS The other guys

They have to land and then can affect enemy models on the following turn.
I can't argue, Fiends, Crushers, Bloodletters are not effective at what they do. BUT the simple fact is that the Tzeentch demons all get 1 more turn to affect the enemy.

Tzeentch has the best units in the codex by far right now. Fateweaver, Lords of Change, Heralds of Tzeentch, Pink Horrors, Flamers, Screamers, Tzeentch Daemon Princes, etc.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yup, agreeing with the other guys. All boils down to; "Deep striking then shooting immediately = awesome", "Deep striking, staying in place, getting shot, attempting to pull off a charge, getting overwatched = alright".

Plaguebearers are pretty awesome for holding objectives, though.

[jamesdean13]

I'm still using Plaguebearers to score 3x5 other than that though I'm running a heavy Tz list without even touching screamers. If I had them I'd run them.

Running a Flying circus list Fate/Thirster 3x Tz DP's wings all around.

[Wildeybeast]

Don't know it affects your consideration, but there are several rumours they will be getting a new codex early next year (Feb is looking most likely at the moment).

[miteyheroes]

I haven't played since 6th came in, and was looking at doing a new army. Tzeentch Daemons have always tempted me, I'm glad to hear that they're good these days! Any more tips on them? What do people think about Fateweaver & 3 Heralds rather than Fateweaver & LoC? Any ideas for a 1500 pt list?

[Tepogue]

See the main page. The listed Tzeentch list is more powerful than an army with Fateweaver and Princes.

I just listed a 1k army list and my experience winning a small local tourney in the Battle Reports section.