Space Marine Vehicles

[Kawauso]

Okay, so here's something that's been bugging me for a while. I just wanted to get it off my chest and see what fellow lore-lovers think or if anyone has some sort of canonical explanation.

So, Space Marines. We know a lot about them! For instance, we know that the vast majority of chapters, being codex-compliant, consist of about 1000 fighting marines in 100-strong companies. We also know in great detail how these companies are organized (battle companies for example consisting of a command unit, 6 tactical squads, 2 assault squads, 2 devastator squads and assorted support vehicles).

Those support vehicles are something of a logistical bugbear for me, however.

Thing is, Astartes also tend to take to the battlefield with a good amount of vehicular support. From Predators and Land Raiders and even humble Rhinos on the ground to Thunderhawks and Stormtalons in the air, there are a lot of craft that ferry marines about and support them in battle.

But where do all the pilots/drivers come from? I mean it's pretty clear that marine craft is crewed by marines (barring the odd servitor here and there), which makes perfect sense...
But in order to man all of these vehicles, especially in any large-scale engagement...well, that takes a lot of marines who don't have their boots on the ground. When you take into account the fact that most vehicles have 2-3 man crews...that's going to add up to a lot of Astartes pretty quickly. Enough so that it seems on the surface like it's going to eat into that ~1000-strong fighting force pretty quickly. So where are all these pilots and gunners and what-have-you coming from?

[sangrail777]

Here's a thought, even if a Chapter was "codex-compliant" thats "1000 fighting marines" to fill the basics slots.
So your not really going against the codex if you actually have more Marines that fill other slots. I'm in the Army we do this all the time. Our MTOE for a Battalion is only so many Soldiers, but we actually have additional Soldiers which we put into other slots, or just hide in the books somewhere. It's not unreasonable to have a Chapter which is an isolated fighting force do this as well. Also I've read some chapters use servitors or Marines that have been injured to fill these slots.
O' and this could be what the Reserve companies actually do. (I doubt this though)

[ElectricPaladin]

Here's a thought, even if a Chapter was "codex-compliant" thats "1000 fighting marines" to fill the basics slots.
So your not really going against the codex if you actually have more Marines that fill other slots. I'm in the Army we do this all the time. Our MTOE for a Battalion is only so many Soldiers, but we actually have additional Soldiers which we put into other slots, or just hide in the books somewhere. It's not unreasonable to have a Chapter which is an isolated fighting force do this as well. Also I've read some chapters use servitors or Marines that have been injured to fill these slots.
O' and this could be what the Reserve companies actually do. (I doubt this though)

Sangrail is probably right.

Also, though, in some chapters, chapter serfs fulfill a lot of functions, from building and repairing vehicles to crewing space ships. It wouldn't surprise me if in some chapters they even let them drive the tanks.

[Nabterayl]

IA2 goes into this in some detail, and all Forge World depictions of marine strike forces follow its lead. According to IA2, marine vehicles are indeed crewed by battle brothers of the "1,000," particularly the 6th and 7th reserve companies. This means that a "one company" strike force almost always contains personnel from a battle company and a reserve company, which provides the custodians (that's the marine name for "vehicle crew") for the armory vehicles, the fleet vehicles, and even the battle company's organic Rhinos and Razorbacks. It also means that even a full-strength chapter cannot put more than about five companies of infantry on the ground without starting to sacrifice vehicular support. Consider what it takes to move a battle company in Rhinos and just two Predators: eleven reserve marines for Rhino custodians, four for Predators, about ten for the strike cruiser, and fourteen for the Thunderhawk Transporters. That's almost three squads for a full combat drop, without any Thunderhaek Gunships for escort (four marines apiece) or rapid strike vessels to escort the strike cruiser (about five apiece, say).

To modern (enlightened) eyes it probably seems weird to have a highly trained commando driving the APC and serving as navigator on the drop ship. In the real world we would never waste highly trained personnel that way. I am convinced that this is intentional; nothing about the Imperium's war machine looks enlightened to modern eyes. And to a space marine, I imagine the honor of the chapter demands that precious assets like APCs and drop ships not be entrusted to anyone less than a fully trained commando - not to mention space marine clannishness and pride probably make them distrustful of relying on "lesser" personnel for combat support arms.

[Wolfshade]

In agreement with Nabterayl, IIRC some of the older codecii (by older I'm talking way back in the 2nd ed) go into some detail saying that it is the marines in the reserve companies that learn to drive. Additionally, you could also sometimes have the bizare situation whereby the tank would explode by the crew/driver would survive and so you wound then have a marine running around, either that or in my youthful exuberance I player the rules wrong.
Also, the 1000 strong must be a bit shy really if you consider 10 soliders in 10 squads in 10 companies does get to 1,000 marines, but then each company has a captain + command squad so that is another 60, then there is the chapter master and honour guard/retinue. On top of this you then have the HQ support the chapter librarians, chaplains, apothecaries and technmarines which push you way over.

There was a BoLS article a little while ago discussing the numbers.

[sangrail777]

I would concede that every answer on this page is correct.
Each Chapter does their own thing and thinking of fluff, orginization, capabilities, training doctrine, SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures).
I've read that some Chapters will even send some Marines to other Chapters for training on flying Thunderhawks, or operating Landspeeders etc.
I think it all depends on how the Chapter Leadership deals with being an Autonomies entity.

[Pendragon38]

I would concede that every answer on this page is correct.
Each Chapter does their own thing and thinking of fluff, orginization, capabilities, training doctrine, SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures).
I've read that some Chapters will even send some Marines to other Chapters for training on flying Thunderhawks, or operating Landspeeders etc.
I think it all depends on how the Chapter Leadership deals with being an Autonomies entity.

Almost all the tanks and flyers are manned by tech marines. Save the bikes and speeders are manned from the assault squads. And there's about 20-30 tech mariners for the armoure ands hundreds of servitors for them.

Perry

[Kawauso]

Thanks for the replies, everyone - I have to say you've helped put my mind more or less at ease in this regard.

I figured the reserve assault/devastator companies were likely the ones to crew vehicles, since their members are often split up and attached to battle companies, anyway. It just seemed kind of strange to sacrifice that extra infantry potential for their vehicular support. But then I guess it does make sense from an SM perspective. Plus an SM vehicle (which are better than run-of-the-mill Imperial tech, for the most part) piloted by an SM makes sense for a pretty deadly combination. I just suppose it means that at most times at least 2-3 full companies within a chapter are providing vehicular support for other companies.

As for the Techmarine bit, Pendragon, I don't know how much sense that makes.
I mean yeah, almost all the models would imply that vehicle pilots/etc. are Techmarines of some sort...but at the same time that doesn't make much sense.
Not only are Techmarines busy with all the chapter upkeep (and there'd be a lot of that to do), but 20-30 guys...there's no way they would be enough to provide vehicular support for the 5 battle companies a chapter has. I mean, there's no way they'd be able to do it -without- the added responsibility of maintenance and everything else they do...

[Nabterayl]

I think a more likely lore explanation for the abundance of opus machinae on custodian models is that when a marine is assigned as custodian of a vehicle, it's an event worthy of altering his power armor (like serving a term in the Deathwatch). After all, he is going to be jacking his black carapace into that vehicle (via his armor, per IA2), and custodian vehicles are not like bikes, land speeders, or guns. Those are revered relics of the chapter; a tank or war machine is a revered relic and, to a space marine, a comrade-in-arms. Space marines fight over a damage or destroyed Rhino like they fight over a wounded or slain battle brother. I'd say being assigned to such a machine could well warrant a special badge.

[Cpt Codpiece]

i always thought crew were either company line troops, reserves if more infantry were needed and or low rank techmarines for specialist stuff (land raider, fliers etc)

GW kinda follow that logic with the pads you get with kits.