The Man with the Master Plan

[dark messenger]

I can't figure this one by myself.

I've done some digging and it looks to me like the Emperor made a huge mistake in his aeons long plan. Humans invariably fail.

He was trying to guide the human race to its ultimate destiny of becoming this psychic "super race" and taking control of the universe (one presumes) making each and every human as potent a being as He was.
But the Emperor was human Himself, the best of humanity, but still... So He must've looked in the mirror (so to speak) and known He was going to fail in this great endeavour?

Was it an oversight? Pure arrogance in that He believed He couldn't fail? Or did He simply not know?

I understand the Chaos Gods played a role in this, clouding His vision or something. But surely a super psyker master race would be a good thing for them and a bad thing for humans? Coz wouldn't they just go the way of the Eldar and get eaten en masse by the denizens of the warp?

I'd appreciate your views on this one

[Cpt Codpiece]

the emperor was a fool, and a weakiling! lorgar should have taken the throne when his puppet horus failed

but back on topic. i dont think the grand plan was flawed through humanity being weak or the plan being fundamentally flawed.

if magnus had not have broke the golden throne, and instead been placed on it (he was essentially a nimbus of psychic energy given form) then the webway portals would have been secured by the grey knights (when they were formed) and custodes.

mankind would have been relativly safe from the perils of the warp inside the webway (like the D eldar, but without the soul binding to slaanesh), so when they were fully developed as a psychic master race they could emerge triumphant against the powers in the warp.

but alas, on his failure to communicate his will and lorgars masterful spreading of the heretical lectitio divinitatus (early laymans book of lorgar), the imperium has lapsed into a state of decline, all the while feeding the eightfold path with the endless toil and war

[bfmusashi]

The Emperor's drill will pierce the heavens.

[eldargal]

mankind would have been relativly safe from the perils of the warp inside the webway (like the D eldar, but without the soul binding to slaanesh), so when they were fully developed as a psychic master race they could emerge triumphant against the powers in the warp.

And then the harlequins seal the tunnels leading to Terra and humanity is back to square one again. The irony of the Emperor's Great Plan was that it was always going to fail in the end.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

A plan never survives contact with the enemy

[Cursed13]

In this topic, I like to play the more radical views. The mistake is to think the Emperor failed at all. It's the greatest lie ever told. The Emperor isn't even a corpse lord on the Golden Throne. The only ones who even know what happened to him after the battle with Horus is his Custodes Captain and Rogal Dorn. Even they are dead now. There's no one left alive to talk of what they may have seen. All that's left is myth and legend. Hardly anything to take as solid proof or evidence of truth.

Consider it, even when the Emperor walked through the Warp unprotected, the four Empyrrean Kings combined could do nothing to him, they didn't even try. If the four powers were going to strike down the Emperor, you would think they would do so in their own domain where they have home field advantage. To think that Horus, merely one of the Emperor's creations, even imbued with the powers of Chaos, could possibly harm the Emperor is ludicrous. The power that is hinted at that the Emperor has makes Horus pale in comparison, and even that is knowledge is extremely limited to our understanding.

But what about the throne room? Do we even know who is allowed into the throne room? Only the Custodes for sure, and they certainly aren't going to tell anyone about the status of the Emperor. Sure there is stories of the Mechanicus saying the Throne is failing, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Techpriests were permitted into the throne room. More likely all the mechanical and electrical systems are underneath the throne, not in or around the throne, and as such the priests would only need to go under the throne room rather than in it. Of course, we don't know what the throne room is like or how the throne functions or how its constructed, this much is only speculation and conjecture.

How about the Warp Binding? Another thing we really have no understanding of. Perhaps the astrotelepaths enter a chamber that is adjacent to the throne room itself. It's not unreasonable to think that the Emperor in his "corpse state" could still project his abilities to bind the astropaths. Again, more speculation and conjecture.

But what about the state of the Imperium? How could he let it get so bad? How could this possibly be in His plan? Perhaps the Imperium isn't in such a bad state. Who can truly know the Emperor's vision and plan save the Emperor himself? Certainly, the Imperium isn't the ideal that he was looking for, but it's not as bad as it could be. The Imperium is still connected, it still has technology and it can still mobilize to fight and defend itself. The people believe in and worship the Emperor, so that keeps them loyal, for the most part. The Emperor with his great vision saw all the myriad and probable futures, but once the one where Horus betrays him began to fall into place, he knew what he had to do to prevent it from complete collapse and falling into chaos. He did everything he could to create the possible future where the absolute minimum damage was suffered.

So if he's not a corpse and isn't making himself known to the wider Imperium, what exactly is he doing? That, unfortunately, is not for us to know. For the rest of the galaxy, they must believe the Emperor is a carrion lord stuck to the Throne, for whatever purpose this may serve. The Emperor's machinations are complex and take thousands of years to pan out. Whatever he is doing clearly needs his undivided attention and the freedom to move and act as he needs to.

Of course, this is just my crazy theory and interpretation. Enjoy!

As for the Harlequins, as much as I love the Eldar (Craftworld Iybraesil represent!), the Emperor would blow them away in a psychic storm of devastation. Even the Harlequins present no match against the Emperor. As unfortunate as that is.

I'm sure someone will try and bring up that Chaos likes to work in a backward manner, setting up plots and schemes and pushing things into action. Maybe that's true and maybe that's what they did with Horus, but they still failed. The Warp Lords know just as well as anyone the myriad futures and possibilities since they can travel to all of them, and knowing what they know they should have taken out the Emperor when he was in the warp. Their daemons still struggle to find paths into the material realm, their champions are still defeated and their daemon lords are still cast back into the warp by the Grey Knights. The best they can hope for is suckling off some of the weaker Human chaff and using them like pawns to help them cross the boundary between our realm and theirs. Hardly what I would call a stunning victory for the Chaos gods.

[ElectricPaladin]

This is an interesting conversation, but I don't think we're ever going to have a final answer. GW is never going to advance their storyline, so we may never know the "truth," or even if there is one.

That said.

I like the idea that Emperor screwed up, but not in any way that is easy to sum up. The Emperor didn't screw up because he did this or that one thing, or had this single bad idea. His idea was sound, his decisions were good. That's what makes the tragedy so beautiful - one of the few truly well-written things in the world of 40k. It was a series of good decisions that led to tragedy because sometimes sh*t happens. There were so many ways it could have gone right: Horus could have swallowed his pride, the Emperor could have listened to Magnus or sent someone less easily manipulated than Russ, or the Lion could have chosen honor over ambition, or, or, or... But none of these things happened. It's not because Chaos manipulated them masterfully - it's because they were ultimately human creatures. Some of them - Sanguinius, Dorn, Manus, and others - chose to rise above their base natures. The traitors didn't, and in that, they doomed the Imperium.

It wasn't Chaos's plan. It was the Primarchs' - and the Emperor's - human failings.

What I think is really interesting is despite the fact that the world of 40k is presented as such a grim (and dark) place, nobody seems to really buy it. Every Eldar clings to the idea that Ynnead will one day rescue the souls of the Eldar and save the world. Imperial players believe that one day the Emperor will rise - or die and become a god, or be replaced, or whatever. Tau players believe that the Greater Good can absorb the Imperium and save everyone.

Well, not everyone. Ork, Necron, Tyranid, and Chaos players? They're just freaks. .

The point is, sometimes I wonder if it isn't intentional. Maybe the point is that the world is presented as hopeless so that we can believe? Nevertheless, I really wish they'd advance the story one of these days...

[jgebi]

also with the web way it's fractured so parts are inexscable to the eldar or any race. And didn't it say in one of the books that he was making his own closed of version of the webway... wait what if the 1000 psycers are to help him form his new webway for man?... and as the webway is a living breathing entity like the warp if the eldar did try to break through then they would be expunged as the webways are infact use a genitc code to ID FOF, just my spin but I like the Idea of the emperor still living

[Nabterayl]

His idea was sound, his decisions were good. That's what makes the tragedy so beautiful - one of the few truly well-written things in the world of 40k.

The point is, sometimes I wonder if it isn't intentional. Maybe the point is that the world is presented as hopeless so that we can believe? Nevertheless, I really wish they'd advance the story one of these days...

I think Games Workshop, as a whole, is pretty good at writing mythology. Its writing is at its best when it's creating mythology that explores human failings, which I think is why they find the story of Chaos so compelling. But at the same time, I think the features of the lore that make it good mythology present serious problems when trying to tell stories about the mythology. In terms of serving human needs, all eight of the major human faiths in the lore have severe and obvious deficiencies. All eighteen of the primarchs are incredibly immature. Those are good, desirable things for mythology. They're bad things for storytelling, though.

Well, not everyone. Ork, Necron, Tyranid, and Chaos players? They're just freaks. .

Hey hey hey, now. We orks know that the world really isn't a grim place. It's full of fightin', rokkin', lootin', and beer! It only looks bad to you because you need to get your priorities straight

[Cpt Codpiece]

also with the web way it's fractured so parts are inexscable to the eldar or any race. And didn't it say in one of the books that he was making his own closed of version of the webway... wait what if the 1000 psycers are to help him form his new webway for man?... and as the webway is a living breathing entity like the warp if the eldar did try to break through then they would be expunged as the webways are infact use a genitc code to ID FOF, just my spin but I like the Idea of the emperor still living

i got the impression that the webway was not as fractured until magnus forced his way in. thus explaining the emperors visions of harnessing it, and why he was so annoyed wirth magnus.
bear in mind magnus had a guide all of his life in the warp, even so far as to teach his sons how to aquire tutilaries, now what or who was magnus' tutilary? its kind of explained in 1ksons