force weapons and feel no pain

[Forlornhope15]

since the FAQ states that weapons with the instant death special rule nullify that Feel no pain rolls

Do force weapons nullify FNP? if so when does one take the psychic test? after invlun saves have been taken but before FNP?

[DarkLink]

Force weapons are activated when a model suffers an unsaved wound, and then they inflict Instant Death. Feel No Pain happens after a model has suffered an unsaved wound. While it would be feasible to argue that you could take FNP first to ignore the unsaved wound and prevent the Force Weapons from activating, it's another one of those ambiguous GW rules where contradictory things happen simultaneously.

However, the rules do say this:

FNP (BRB pg35): Roll a D6 each time an unsaved Wound is suffered.

So the model suffers an unsaved wound. After you suffer the unsaved wound, you may ignore it with FNP.

Force Weapons (BRB pg 58) If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it...

So when the model suffers the unsaved wound, you immediately (as in before the 'after' with FNP), you make it inflict Instant Death.

Sounds like you take the unsaved wound, try to activate force weapons, and you only get FNP if you fail the psychic check. Force Weapons ignore FNP.

Also, no Deny the Witch against Force Weapons anymore, either, which is silly.

[Warpspider89]

Force weapons are activated when a model suffers an unsaved wound, and then they inflict Instant Death. Feel No Pain happens after a model has suffered an unsaved wound. While it would be feasible to argue that you could take FNP first to ignore the unsaved wound and prevent the Force Weapons from activating, it's another one of those ambiguous GW rules where contradictory things happen simultaneously.

However, the rules do say this:



So the model suffers an unsaved wound. After you suffer the unsaved wound, you may ignore it with FNP.



So when the model suffers the unsaved wound, you immediately (as in before the 'after' with FNP), you make it inflict Instant Death.

Sounds like you take the unsaved wound, try to activate force weapons, and you only get FNP if you fail the psychic check. Force Weapons ignore FNP.

Also, no Deny the Witch against Force Weapons anymore, either, which is silly.

Given that it is clearly stated that FNP is NOT a save I am inclined to agree with your analysis.

[Animus Silvanna]

Also, no Deny the Witch against Force Weapons anymore, either, which is silly.

WHAT!? Where is that rule located? I just feel my power ever expanding with this revelation lol.


Also, YAY HUNDREDTH POST!!!!

[Nabterayl]

Page 37: "Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons."

However, I suggest we spend the next ten pages debating whether or not DtW rolls can be taken against Force weapons, just to be sure

[Animus Silvanna]

Im not near anyone with a chaos codex does the mean that Kharn is susceptible to force weapons then?

[Nabterayl]

Kharn doesn't get his 2+ DtW against force weapons, but Blessing of the Blood God goes on to state, "if Kharn suffers an unsaved Wound from a Force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict Instant Death on him." So there's no point activating a force weapon against Kharn, but they still work perfectly well as power weapons.

[Animus Silvanna]

How very interesting, Well atleast I know Draigo could still beat him in a Ro-sham-bow contest

[Angelofblades]

I find that both abilities go off at the same time. They both have the same qualifier, suffering an "unsaved wound."

The fact that "Force," has the word "immediately," means nothing.

To quote another:

All rules in 40k are resolved "immediately", using "immediately" in a flow process is completely redundant. There's no default "pause for breath/tea/beer"* in any rule that lacks "immediately" in the sentence.

For example:

An infantry unit suffered 25% casualties in the shooting phase. The controlling player rolled the morale check immediately at the end of the phase.

An infantry unit suffered 25% casualties in the shooting phase. The controlling player rolled the morale check at the end of the phase.

What does "immediately," do for the sentence ? Nothing.

Fortunately, the rulebook does have a contingency in place for such things, for this we refer to page 9 of the rulebook.

At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur.

Pretty cut and dry to me. If it's your turn, you decide. Now, is that the best answer we would all like to hear? I doubt it, but thems the rules.

[Warpspider89]

Suggesting it is instantaneous implies that you take the force test at the same tine the wound is cause. Which is clearly wrong as force says "after".

The letter B is after A.
The letter B is immediately after A.

Which one happened first?

All rules in 40k are all immediately done.

Unit A suffers 6 wounds. When are saves rolled if not immediately?

A vehicle decides to move through dangerous terain in the movement phase. Shall we wait until 3 tirns later during an assault overwatch to roll the dangerous terrain check, or should it be taken then and there?

So in any rule that does not have an "immediately" qualifier, I can choose when to take any tests/ saves?

My opponent caused a morale check in shooting, oh I dont have to immediately take them, lets move on...

The instant death effect of a Force Weapon happens before FNP rolls occur. As a consequence, FNP is cannot be taken against force weapon effects. My argument is based on an understanding of conditionals, the meaning of the word immediately, and the listed rules in the BRB.

Most rules are forms of conditionals. Conditionals are things that require other things to be a certain way for them to happen. For the purpose of examples (p) will be the antecedent, which is a proposition (ie. statement that is either true or false), which must be satisfied and (q) will be the consequent of (p) being satisfied. I will also be working with the example of wounds & saves provided by AngelofBlades. Since s/he did not differentiate between those wounds being caused by shooting or CC lets imagine they are the result of shooting.

A common form of conditionals is: If (p) then (q).

In terms of the example: If a unit suffers wounds in a shooting phase, then wounds must be allocated and saving throws must be rolled in that shooting phase.

Yes, I included that the wounds are resolved in the shooting phase as part of the conditional because in the BRB on page 15 it is clearly required that wounds caused by a unit being shot in the shooting phase to have their wounds allocated and rolled in that shooting phase. This is done not immediately but simply happens after certain conditions are met; all the is required is that the antecedent be satisfied for the consequent to occur.

Rules for the Force Effect:
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, [then] he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test... If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule" (BRB, pp. 37).

The psychic test to inflict instant death happens immediately, before anything else, after the condition that unsaved wounds inflicted against a unit. Note that this would then happen before FNP or the removal of casualties.

Rules for Feel No Pain.
"When [if] a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, [then] it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)... On a roll of 5+, the unsaved wound is discounted" (BRB, pp. 35).

It is clear based on what has been previously stated that this is a conditional and that the antecedent has been met, but this does not preclude the possibility of something happening between the satisfaction of the antecedent and the occurrence of the consequent.

To put one final nail in the coffin of this discussion...

"Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death" (BRB, pp. 35).