force weapons and feel no pain

[Angelofblades]

Yeah, FNP isn't a save, so you still get it against unsaved wounds caused by Perils even though Perils ignores "all saves".



Not quite. Force Weapons activate "when a model suffers an unsaved wound". FNP only happens "after a model suffers an unsaved wound". When is simultaneous with the unsaved wound, whilst after is subsequent to. So you suffer the unsaved wound an immediately pass a psychic test to inflict Instant Death, and since FNP happens after the unsaved wound (and thus after ID) you don't get FNP.

They could be more clear about it, but I can't really justify why FNP would happen at the same time or before taking the unsaved wound/activating Force Weapons when it explicitly says ​after.

Not quite. FnP has no wording for after. This is what it says

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw).

It specifically says when, there is no reference to after. That must be something you mistakenly added.

Force says:

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).

So by your reasoning then in this case, they must occur simultaneously. As you said,when is simultaneous with the unsaved wound. It must also be simultaneous with the inflicting of the unsaved wound, since once the wound is inflicted, the model suffers from it.
It isn't even a case of after, that word doesn't even occur in any of the rules.

That should be more than enough justification for FnP occurring at the same time as Force.

In fact, the argument that FnP is before Force is stronger, simply because the rule for Force has a pause, all the player does is immediately choose to activate it, it does not say you immediately take it. whilst with FnP it is automatic, you cannot choose not to take FnP.

The way I see it, the rules work like this:

Force: inflict unsaved wound -> choose between to activate or not -> activate if yes

FnP: suffer unsaved wound -> roll FnP.

Thus the roll for FnP occurs during the choice of activating Force, prior to it actually being activated, thus by the time you want to activate Force, the wound potentially no longer exists.

Or it can be agreed upon that they do occur at the same time, thus refer to page 9 for simultaneous rules.

[Warpspider89]

Not quite. FnP has no wording for after. This is what it says



It specifically says when, there is no reference to after. That must be something you mistakenly added.

Force says:



So by your reasoning then in this case, they must occur simultaneously. As you said,when is simultaneous with the unsaved wound. It must also be simultaneous with the inflicting of the unsaved wound, since once the wound is inflicted, the model suffers from it.
It isn't even a case of after, that word doesn't even occur in any of the rules.

That should be more than enough justification for FnP occurring at the same time as Force.

In fact, the argument that FnP is before Force is stronger, simply because the rule for Force has a pause, all the player does is immediately choose to activate it, it does not say you immediately take it. whilst with FnP it is automatic, you cannot choose not to take FnP.

The way I see it, the rules work like this:

Force: inflict unsaved wound -> choose between to activate or not -> activate if yes

FnP: suffer unsaved wound -> roll FnP.

Thus the roll for FnP occurs during the choice of activating Force, prior to it actually being activated, thus by the time you want to activate Force, the wound potentially no longer exists.

Or it can be agreed upon that they do occur at the same time, thus refer to page 9 for simultaneous rules.

Re-read my main post on this thread for a full explanation of why your line of reasoning is incorrect.

[Warpspider89]

Read my main post on this thread for a more comprehensive explanation.

FnP is conditional on the suffering of an unsaved wound. When an unsaved wound is suffered, which is after failing saves, then FnP is rolled on.

Force is also conditional on suffering an unsaved wound, but the word immediately implies that it happens before anything else would happen, much like an instant works in Magic: The Gathering. The ID effect that comes with it happens AFTER the force rule is used, which took place immediately after failing saves.

This is really straight forward. People just want to bend the rules so that their Mephiston to be immune to ID....

[DarkLink]

It specifically says when, there is no reference to after. That must be something you mistakenly added.

Hmm, guess so. I'd even specifically looked up FNP, too, I wonder where I got the after from.

In fact, the argument that FnP is before Force is stronger, simply because the rule for Force has a pause, all the player does is immediately choose to activate it, it does not say you immediately take it. whilst with FnP it is automatic, you cannot choose not to take FnP.

This is wrong, though. If you choose to activate it, regardless of the extra step involved, you would put other stuff on hold until you completed the Force Weapon activation. These are still simultaneous. The only preference you can give to either one is the part of the rule that states that ID ignores FNP, which is what this whole argument is about.

The Force rule does say "immediately", though. That's an even stronger implication of immediacy than a simple "when". While I can see the argument for being simultaneous, I still have to say that the wording puts Force Weapons first.

Edit:
In fact, reading over the rules again, Force weapons state that "If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule..."

So regardless of what order you do it in, all unsaved wounds that turn from the Force Weapon get Instant Death, even retroactively, and thus would ignore FNP retroactively. I'm not even sure simultaneity matters here.

[Angelofblades]

Hmm, guess so. I'd even specifically looked up FNP, too, I wonder where I got the after from.



This is wrong, though. If you choose to activate it, regardless of the extra step involved, you would put other stuff on hold until you completed the Force Weapon activation. These are still simultaneous. The only preference you can give to either one is the part of the rule that states that ID ignores FNP, which is what this whole argument is about.

The Force rule does say "immediately", though. That's an even stronger implication of immediacy than a simple "when". While I can see the argument for being simultaneous, I still have to say that the wording puts Force Weapons first.

Edit:
In fact, reading over the rules again, Force weapons state that "If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule..."

So regardless of what order you do it in, all unsaved wounds that turn from the Force Weapon get Instant Death, even retroactively, and thus would ignore FNP retroactively. I'm not even sure simultaneity matters here.

Like I've said before and I'll repeat again. The "immediately," in Force has no bearing on which takes precedence. All rules in 40k are resolved immediately. Do you allow someone at Wargamescon to spend 30mins to roll 1 armor save or is it not resolved "immediately".

When the pistol fires, the sprinter ran.
When the pistol fires, the sprinter immediately ran.

Who ran faster? I don't get how one can be faster than an agreed upon simultaneous, it may imply, but technically (which is what counts), they both still occur at the same time. As you stated, the usage of when is akin to simultaneous, or immediately. Youre beginning to sound like that Animal Farm quote.

"All men are created equal but some are more equal than others."

When a Psyker inflicts an unsaved wound, immediately choose to test.
When a Psyker inflicts an unsaved wound, choose to test.

These two sentences mean exactly the same thing,

As far as applying Force retroactively, you wouldn't have to bother applying anything retroactively if no wound existed. Hence the whole point of the discussion.

[Warpspider89]

It isn't that the wound doesn't exist because of FNP but that they can tough out the pain... but Force & other ID effects overpower even the most resilient warriors.

PS. Angelofblades you need to work on your logic buddy. That example with the runners... you asked who runs faster after mentioning two ways of responding to a starter gun firing... their speed in running and the time it takes for them to react to a gun firing are two different things.

You need to read my amended post on the first page it clearly lays out the RAW argument for Force > FNP.

[Learn2Eel]

Unless the rulebook states otherwise, there is no reason you couldn't take FNP agains perils of the warp.

I know you can, hence my point that I feel they were going for something similar in regards to force weapons. My gut feeling, not represented in the rules as written though.

[DarkLink]

Like I've said before and I'll repeat again. The "immediately," in Force has no bearing on which takes precedence. All rules in 40k are resolved immediately. Do you allow someone at Wargamescon to spend 30mins to roll 1 armor save or is it not resolved "immediately".

I've got to call bull**** on this. Immediately means "before doing other stuff". When one rule specifically uses immediately, and another doesn't, the fact that the rules have similar meanings does not mean they have the same meaning, and immediately places a pretty clear precedence on the order of operations. When, when not including immediately, doesn't require that it be done immediately if there's something else you're supposed to do first.

[Animus Silvanna]

Can I just Laud you guys for bringing this up =D. I think that the wording in the rules clearly states that the Activation comes before you get FnP. Take it how you want it but from my perspective if I tell a soldier to go to the motor-pool, he probably is gonna do it within 30 minutes or so but throwing out the "Immediately" inside that sentence somewhere and he is headed down there, Time Now. FnP has already become such a catch all for defending against everything anyway, why would you try to take away misely force weapons too? I have a chance that I might fry my own brain in the process...

[Sanguineone]

'On a 5+, the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved'
No wound, no instant death. FNP isn't a saving throw so maybe it doesn't follow the same linear process as it states said wound didn't happen as it was saved? This would cancel out the 'all unsaved wounds inflicted ...... ....that turn' of the force weapon.
I prefer to think of it as an additional characteristic not shown on the stat line. I think in the spirit of the game this is shown by 'this is not a saving throw'. If feel no pain wasn't taken instantly then regardless if it was a force weapon or not a one wound model would be dead in game terms.