Chaos Land Raider - Worth it? Or are points better spent elsewhere?

[Kawauso]

Like many others lately, I've been sort of stumped by the versatility of the new CSM codex.

The thing is, I'm on a really tight hobby budget these days and my aim is to build a strictly Tzeentch-aligned Thousand Sons force that's fluffy and thematic without being a pushover on the table. This is proving particularly troublesome because I have neither the financial nor in-game resources to play around with that many options; rubric marines are plenty expensive on the tabletop as is building up the collection of models to support them.

So that leaves me with the riddle of the Land Raider.

I've had the parts for a MKIIB Land Raider sitting around now for some time. I'd always assumed it would have a place in my Thousand Sons army whenever a new Chaos book came around, but lately I'm not so sure. It does provide some value to potential army lists, of course, in that it is a tough and heavy tank that provides protection for one of my scoring units. It also has a reasonable amount of firepower - particularly in the anti-vehicle/flier department, which is something that my army will sorely need when its troops are dedicated anti-infantry units. It is, however, a lot of points in an army that is already looking to be quite expensive no matter what I do with it.

For example, consider that if I take only 1 HQ it is going to be a Sorcerer of some sort Regardless of loadout he's probably going to run around ~150 points or less, but for simplicity's sake that's the number we'll stick with for now. Two units of Thousand Sons as the core of the army are running about ~240 points apiece at 9-strong (to please the Change of Ways). So right off the bat we're looking at about ~630 points as the core of the army and we don't have a very strong scoring presence (in particularly it's vulnerable to weight-of-fire) or any anti-vehicle capabilities. Adding a Land Raider with some upgrades on top of that is running me close to ~880 points and still leaving one unit slogging around on foot. I'd like to be able to field a reasonably well-balanced list at around 1500 points and I'm rapidly running out of wiggle room - this isn't even accounting for my 'rubric' Terminator unit yet (~360 pts). Now granted I won't be using the termy deathstar all the time, but I want to be -able- to use it. Trouble is that cramming a unit like that into the army list with a Land Raider becomes really problematic.



Thus I turn to the collective consciousness of BoLS for help and advice. Should I find a way to make the Land Raider work in my army? Or should I jettison it in favour of something else - and if so, what? The model wouldn't go to waste; one of my other marine forces can always use it. Finding out what to do with precious, precious points and dollars where my Thousand Sons are concerned, however, is another matter. Clearly I'm not looking for advice on how to create a themed Thousand Sons list that will win any tournaments...but if anyone would be able to help me in crafting a nicely themed and well-balanced list I'd greatly appreciate it.

[ElectricPaladin]

The common wisdom I have heard is that a land raider is not worth the points if you are not going to use its transport capacity. That said, you are planning to use this terminator/sorcerer deathstar, which you could always chose to put in the land raider, though that would involve going a turn or two without shooting as the land raider charges them into position.

For my Exorcists, I run shooty terminators in a land raider crusader with a terminator librarian. Of course, as a loyalist, I have some options you don't. I can run a 10-strong terminator squad, divide it into two groups of five, put both long-range special weapons into one combat squad, and put the both chainfists into the other combat squad, and in the land raider. I also have the option of a land raider crusader, and you don't.

I think if your question is "can you use a land raider in a chaos list" then the answer is "yes."

If the question is "can I us a land raider in this chaos list" then the answer is "I dunno - tell me more about your list."

[DarkLink]

I actually think Chaos Land Raiders are better than loyalist Land Raiders, for the simple fact that they're cheaper. Yes, you lose PotMS (but now that PotMS is weaker, it's not as big of a deal), but Land Raiders are primarily for increasing the charge range of a nasty assault unit and preventing your opponent from damaging it before it reaches combat. You don't need PotMS to do that, and the ~30pts you save over the loyalist Raider mitigates the biggest issue with the Land Raider (you're spending a lot of points on a vehicle that dies as soon as your opponent gets a meltagun in range).

Overall, Raiders are better in 6th than in 5th since most people tend to take more anti-infantry now, costing them anti-tank. But they're still not an 'ideal' choice. You can absolutely make them work (I've played a lot with Land Raiders, personally, and in plenty of games you can win without losing more than a handful of models if you know what you're doing), but come up against, say, Tau, and you've just wasted ~220pts on a single extra move. So it really depends on who you're facing.

With Chaos, it can be worth it to deliver Kharne into assault, but you have enough fast attackers (flying Daemon Princes, Helldrakes, allied Daemons) that there are probably more competitive options if that's what you're looking for.

[nurglez]

My current list for 1500 is.

Lord, terminator armour, power axe, black mace, nurgle, boon, sigil
7 plagues, 2 plasma combi plasma rhino DC
7 plagues, 2 melta combi melta rhino DC
2x10 cultists flamer
heldrake
forgefiend, hades
landraider DC
5 havocs, 4 autocannons.

I usually transport the melta plague squad with my lord in the raider, leaving a rhino free to give lifts or provide cover to the cultists/havocs. It's a big line of sight blocker, and 2 twin lascannon's can do ok vs a flyer, and as its snap shots you might as well move 12 while shooting.

I was set on a raider, since I used to use one in the previous codex (and liked how it worked. Prince, 4 plague marine squads, 1 raider, 3 rhinos and a vindicator, very short range but tough too).

I dont think you can just cram them in, while plague marines aren't brilliant at assault, they can do ok, and i can always put a cultist unit in it and reserve it vs certain lists, to bring a tough scoring presence (yes the cultists have to get out to score, but they can hide behind the raider).

I do lament the lack of options for our raider though, a chaos crusader type raider would have been nice (especially considering our maximum marine squad size).

[mstersmith]

I like them but I have one issue with the CSM dex at the moment. If demonic possesion confers a 5++ to forge fiends, defilers ect than it should stand that if you apply it to a vehicle via war gear upgrades it should confer the same.It does not at the moment. Even if it potentially eats a model it is still amazing as an AV14 with an assault ramp with a 5++ if it is FAQ.

[Kawauso]

I appreciate the feedback so far, thanks guys.
And I suppose it's fair to say that I didn't really offer much insight into the sort of list I'm trying to build.
I guess that's because I'm having -that much- trouble trying to build a list.

Nevertheless, I'll try to demonstrate how I'm trying to go about this list and see if that doesn't help a bit more.

Now the thing is I kind of tackled this army from a 'models first, rules second' position when I started working on it bit by bit, which is how I normally do things. With how costly the basic building blocks of this army are points-wise, however, I guess that it's sort of disrupting my ability to gauge how I ought to be shaping the rest of the army. I've worked on a tight points budget before (my all-jumpers/fliers Blood Angels), but the thing is in the case of that army my basic troops were at least versatile enough to perform multiple roles (i.e. meltaguns in Assault Marine squads). Thousand Sons can't really do that, unfortunately. They are -quite good- at the things they do, but the range of tasks they can accomplish is much narrower.

So without any more preamble, here's what I'm looking at so far towards a 1500-point list.

HQ
Terminator Sorcerer w/ force stave, ML2, Mark of Tzeentch - 125
(will hang out with the 'rubric' terminators as their sorcerer)

TROOPS
9x Thousand Sons (sorcerer included), no upgrades -242
9x Thousand Sons (sorcerer included), no upgrades -242

ELITES
Chaos Terminators x8 w/ Mark of Tzeentch, Icon of Flame (mostly for looks, I admit), 1x chainfist, 1x pair/lightning claws, 2x power axe, 4x power sword, 1x heavy flamer, 1x-combi-bolter 2x combi-flamer, 3x combi-melta - 359
(will most often deep strike in, but could slog it on foot if I wanted them to; their job is to do pretty much anything I need them to do without excelling at any one task, as they are kitted out for a number of possible rolls)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Chaos Land Raider w/ havoc launcher, daemonic possession - 257
(will ferry 1 unit of 1kSons around, form the spearhead of any objective-taking actions)

TOTAL COST: 1225 points

So the issue I'm having right now is the army as I'm looking at it so far is very small and elite. Resources are stretched pretty thing from the get-go and getting enough anti-tank in there is proving challenging. I fully accept that I may have to abandon my Terminators for larger-scale games (I just love how the models turned out, though), which is fine, but I'm also considering the possibility of ditching the Land Raider. Obviously this would free up a fair bit of points, perhaps for something like a pair of Rhinos for the Thousand Sons squads and some points towards more dedicated anti-armour units. The problem then is I'm simply not sure which way to take the army.

I guess ultimately my issue boils down to a combination of the new codex making me feel spoilt for choice, while at the same time feeling under pressure from the constrains of my chosen theme/core units and my recently-tightened budget.

Any further insight at this point, though, would be much appreciated.
At 1500 should I be looking at getting rid of the Land Raider? The Terminators? Both? Or does anyone see a way to make things work building up from what I have?
Again any input you people have is much appreciated. I've never felt quite so stumped by an army list before.

[mstersmith]

Ditch the raider and the termies. You are lacking in heavy support and troops becuase of the price of the rubric marines. Use cultist! They are dirt cheap objective squaters. A squad of 20 is half the cost of the raider I believe. Use some painted up Guard in the scheme of your army or get inventive with some bits to add mutations to them. That will free up some points for some havocs or oblits. I would put the Rubric Marines in rhino's. Turn 1 you can get 18" across the board. Put some plasma in there or melta guns and you put a dilema on your enemy. Your still around 1250 so if you shoot for 1500 then you can add a helldrake or some forgefiends. I know you said money is tight but there are cheaper models on fantasy side that can be some great kit bashes for forge fiends. I have not played many games with the new codex so I am shooting from the hip I ussually play DG. I hope I am helping here.

[Denzark]

The main thing a LR brings you is the best possible chance for a vehicle to deliver troops into assault. If your army is built around an assault monster like Kharn then this is worth more than just shuttling a double melta squad into action. This ability in the chaos army is buffed by dirgecasters - no overwatch snap firing within 6" of the casters. I also think the destroyer blades adds some punch to your tank shocking - 2d6 hits if they DoG at you - although I have not explored this in practise.

I have also had good use with the LR as a mobile pillbox. Yes there are things that better do heavy weapons. But the TL means you double your chance against fliers. Bale flamers for only minimal points means that you have chances to do extra wounds - particulalrly against out of LoS weaker squads trying to claim objectives. After a few turns of trading fire from your AV14 pillbox, it trundles up and drops off a scoring unit on an objective - they canhide behind it and unless it explodes, it will block considerable LoS. Remember that if you disembark on the far side of a wrecked vehicle, away from the squad that killed it, if you manage to stay out of LoS, that unit that popped it cannot charge what they cannot see.

Add in Daemonic possession - ignores shaken/stunned 5/6 times and gets an invulnerable save - for -1BS. Can often be worth it, plus the chance to eat a squad member for a HP returned.

Anyone who writes off any variant of LR prematurely runs the risk of looking very foolish.

[Anggul]

Needs PotMS. Even if it was just a BS3 version to represent daemonic control rather than the calm expertise of the machine spirit, without it they just don't work.

[entendre_entendre]

Add in Daemonic possession - ignores shaken/stunned 5/6 times and gets an invulnerable save - for -1BS. Can often be worth it, plus the chance to eat a squad member for a HP returned.

Daemonic Possession does not give your tanks a 5++ save. If it did the upgrade would be a must take on everything. All DP does is ignore Shaken/Stunned on 2+, reduce BS to 3 and potentially eat someone whenever they enter (p68 CSM codex).


OT: You might be better off with some Tzeenech Oblits rather than the LR. If you ditched the Raider, trimmed down some termies you could get some Oblits, Rhinos for your TS, and maybe some Cultists as 'sacrifices' or even potentially another squad of TS for a 1500 list.

Another thing you could do might be to Ally in some Daemons for first turn shock attack with some flamers/screamers or even heralds with Bolt of Tzeenech. Dropping some Horrors on an objective later on while your marines take position could be an effective way of getting forwards.

Chaos Land Raiders are more or less Assault delivery systems for scary choppy things. If you were running a Khorne list I'd say go for it, slap a dirge caster on that baby and drive them straight down your enemy's throat, but a shooty TS-based Tzeenech list? Not so much. :/ However, if you wanted to use the thing as a pillbox, Warpfire Gargoyles can help you get a little bit of extra hurt for a low cost. Pair with a Havoc launcher and literally rain fire on your foes.