Codex: Grey Knights

[DarkLink]

Just like the title says.

I posted basic rules for a revised Grey Knight codex (I don't care much for inquisitors, so didn't write any rules for them) on my local groups forums here:
[url]http://www.figurepainters.com/slogaming/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=535&sid=176408c0d20ec1e62c40b1caf41094dd[/url]

[clkeagle]

Just from an initial skim of your rules, it looks like you have some overpowered/undercosted units. Example: your dreadnought is WS 5 but only 110 points. WS 5 is part of the Venerable points cost in other codices, and other armies have to pay far more for it. Base cost for a WS5/BS4 dread should be closer to 140-150, I'd think.

You say you don't want GK abilities to be focused only against daemon armies, but this flies in the face of their entire fluff as part of the Ordo Malleus. Even if you don't want Inquisitors involved, GK are still an Inquisitorial, daemon-hunting force. While they shouldn't be crippled against any other armies (they are, after all, the best of the best among Space Marines), they should have some sort of specialized abilities against daemonic forces. You'll have to find a balance somewhere.

And keep in mind, "daemon" can include more opponents than just Codex: Chaos Daemons. Any Necron army with C'Tan, any Eldar army with an Avatar, and any Chaos Space Marine army with a daemon prince, possessed space marines, Defilers, Obliterators, or summoned daemons should be considered "daemonic" opponents.

[DarkLink]

You really think that giving a Dreadnought WS 5 should cost 35-45pts? Other codecies Ven. Dreads don't just get WS 5. They get WS 5, BS 5 and the ability to force the opponent to reroll the dices. That all costs 60pts (based on the difference in price between a regular Dreadnought and a Venerable Dreadnought). Now that I think about it, I think I'll make the GK Dread 115 (10pts over a normal Dread). I'd say that the Ven. upgrade would be about 10pts for BS5, 10pts for WS5 and 40pts for the damage reroll.

I'll also point out that GK Dreadnoughts are currently WS5. A GK Dread with an assault cannon is 120pts, while a normal Dread with an assault cannon is 115pts. The only difference there is the WS 5.

I think I made the Ven. Dread upgrade too cheap, though. I'll have to fix that.

What were some of the other points costs you felt were off? Some of the units (teleport assault squad) and some of the abilities I didn't really know how to price, so I just kinda took a shot in the dark.






Something I'll also point out, that I probably should have included in the explanations section, is that Grey Knights suffer from one, big, problem. They're extremely expensive. And that is as they currently are. There are no cheap units in the codex. So even if you can take a Grand Master that can hit at I10 on the charge with 5 WS6 S6 attacks with rerolls on both, and those attacks ignore Invulnerable saves, that GM is over 300pts. Now, that's actually probably a little cheap, but the point is, that is 300pts you aren't spending on bodies. If you go all out with unit like that, you won't have enough bodies, and the enemy will just take you apart because of it.

I don't currently take a GM in anything less than 1500pts, and I don't give him wargear if I do. That's a 145pt model. If you look in a SM army at 1500pts, 2 HQ's isn't unheard of. 300pts on HQ's in a 1500pt list in most armies isn't a big deal. But Grey Knights CANNOT afford a single 300pt model in a 1500pt game (unless it is as tough as a Land Raider, but Land Raiders are vital because of their transport ability).

So some of the options that seem cheap to you seem really, really expensive to me. I'd never take many of them. I have enough experience with the army to know that if I waste points on suplerfluous upgrades, I'll lose. So in a lot of cases, I'm not sure what to price things at, and most other people probably don't know either, because every point you spend on extra upgrades is a point you don't spend on bodies, and your chances of winning decrease exponentially the fewer bodies you have.








As for the Daemon-specific stuff, I've openly stated my opinion in the list explanation sections. If I make the rules Daemon-specific, the rules won't really get any better than they are now. That doesn't need to happen. It's simple:
Grey Knights have X rule. The reason they have this rule, fluffwise, is that the rule is effective against Daemons. But for game-balance purposes, the rule works against everybody, which is justified in the fluff by saying "it is particularly good against Daemons, but works against other foes of the Emperor as well."

As a Grey Knight player, I want good fluff AND good rules. There doesn't have to be a contradiction between the two.

[DarkLink]

And keep in mind, "daemon" can include more opponents than just Codex: Chaos Daemons. Any Necron army with C'Tan, any Eldar army with an Avatar, and any Chaos Space Marine army with a daemon prince, possessed space marines, Defilers, Obliterators, or summoned daemons should be considered "daemonic" opponents.

I included chaos when I talk about this, because some of the current wargear is chaos specific, and some daemon specific.

The C'Tan isn't a daemon (in fact, the warp in antithetical to the C'Tans very existance). The Avatar is, but that is a single unit from a single codex. A I recall, there are 16 armies in the game (Templar, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines, Daemonhunter, Witchhunters, IG, Chaos Marines, Daemons, Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons). I might have missed one. Anyways, I suppose we can eliminate Daemonhunters from the list, as each army would have the same weaknesses. So we have 15 armies.

Out of 15 armies, the Grey Knight Daemon-specific rules only affect 2. And one unit from one other (the Avatar). Daemon-specific rules are looking real useful now, arent they.

The point is, Daemon specific rules do one of two things. They either make Grey Knights good (but balanced) against those 2 armies, and really bad against the other 13 armies (due to the excess of points spend on Daemon specific rules). Or, the Grey Knights are balanced against the other 13 armies, and extremely OP against the last 2 (chaos marines and daemons).

As it currently stands, Grey Knights are weak against every single army, because they have overly expensive rules (primarily as a result of being Daemon specific). If the Grey Knights are ever going to become a balanced army, this MUST change.






Forgive me for ranting about this a lot, but I have to play with these rules every game, so I feel very strongly about them. I love the style of the Grey Knights, how their units can move and shoot and assault. I hate how weak the rules are, though.

[Lord Anubis]

I don't mean this to sound snide. Seriously, I don't. I just can't think of any other way to put this...

Why are you playing Grey Knights?

Across dozens of threads, you keep bashing them. You keep insisting they have to be completely different. You keep pushing for rules that go against every bit of fluff that's been put out for the past decade.

If you hate the existing rules, hate the fluff, hate the way they play in the game, why are you using them? It's kind of like someone insisting they want to play Tyranids, then complaining non-stop because the rules don't let them take tanks.

You've got the models already? Fine. So just use them as Iron Knights or make up your own chapter or something. Can't imagine anyone would be so hard-assed as to refuse to play against you if you're using Space Marines as... well, plain old Space Marines. Why this obsession with turning Grey Knights into something that goes against everything they're supposed to be?

Again, I don't mean for this to be snide. It's just such a baffling approach to me I honestly can't figure it out.

[DarkLink]

Heh, I didn't mean to sound snide either, I was just kinda surprised about the WS 5 Dreadnought thing, as it's something we already have.

I also like to complain a lot about the Daemonhunters powerlevel.

I actually love the fluff behind the Grey Knights. Fluffwise, they're my favorite army in the game. However, I primarily play the game for the game itself, so I don't like fluff getting in the way of good rules. I don't think there has to be a contradiction between the fluff we currently have (which doesn't really have to change much, though I'd like to see it expanded and get a wider variety of unique Grey Knight units), and the rules. We don't have to sacrifice good rules by making everything only work against Daemons and Chaos models. I don't see why we can't balance our rules without violating our fluff, by allowing the rules to work against everyone.

I also love the general layout of the existing Grey Knight units. I love being able to always move, to be able to shoot so well, and to be solid in assault. We're not the best at any one thing, but we're fairly good at everything. It matches my playstyle. I've played assault only armies before (Khorne berzerkers) and then shooty armies (Tau), and while I did well with both, I've found the mix of mobility, shootiness and assaultyness that Grey Knights offer are so much more fun to play with than either of my previous armies.

The problem with the rules isn't with the units themselves. First off, power armor Grey Knights are generally overpriced. Basic Grey Knights pay a lot of points for their special rules, which are pretty much useless. Update the Shrouding, True Grit and the other rules, and power armor Grey Knights will be comparable to, say, Plague Marines or Khorne Berzerkers in terms of power and usefulness. A lot of their weapons upgrades are overpriced as well (mainly psycannons).

Secondly, a lot of their rules could use to be brought in line with 5th edition.

Thirdly, our codex suffers from a lack of variety. Nowadays, we have a limited number of option. For the last year, I've taken 3 Land Raiders in every single 1500pt game I've played. While the list does alright, it does have significant weaknesses, and you get tired of playing the exact same list over and over after a while, especially when there are some very common opposing lists and units that you simply can't counter effectively, outside of pure luck. Recently, I've put together a second list with allied sisters of battle, which I've started to play with. (2 LR, 2 GK squads, a Grand Master and 2 allied sisters squads in rhinos). It's a lot of fun to play, and possibly a little more competitive.

However, I've played a few test games with the codex I posted. While I know a lot of the points need refinement (which is part of why I posted it), I had an absolute blast with the list, because I had so many more viable options. I didn't have to take 3 Land Raiders. I could take 1. I could deepstrike all over the place, I had more bodies, more options, more viable units. It was like playing with one hand tied behind my back ever since 5th ed came out, then suddenly I could use both hands again.

I guess you could say I got a taste of what the Grey Knights have the potential to be (that is, a powerful, highly competitive army), and it's gotten to my head.



Edit:
Oh, and when 5th came out, I tried out a SM army. Doesn't match my playstyle well. I can't for the life of me figure out how to do well with tactical marines. Grey Knights play very, very differently from normal Space Marines.
If it helps, think of it this way. Imagine playing Space Marines, but you could only take Terminators, a Captain, tactical marines with no rhinos, and Land Raiders. I'd imagine it would still be fun, but the list would be much less competitive. Not because it consisted of bad units, but because it lacked options and variety. You'd only have a handful of viable lists. As it stands, that's where Grey Knights are stuck. I love the way they play, and I can see their potential, but I'm kinda stuck in a tough position.

Try going on Bolter and Chainsword, and browse the Inquisition section. You'll find that most Grey Knight players tend to share my general attitude, that Grey Knights are awesome, but their rules fail to live up to their potential. We're all kinda a little bitter for it.

[Bluesfart]

I think Daemonhunters are an awesome choice for doing a homebrew update for. They definitely could use it.

Like you said; they have a complete lack of variety. That to me seems like even more reason to include inquisitors and assassins. They might not be your thing, but you could put a cool spin on them and change them into something you'd like more. I was also hoping to see creative fast attack choice beyond the existing power armored gray knights who choose to teleport.

If you want more generic abilities that aren't daemon-specific bu will give you an advantage over daemons, I would think about powers that interfere with deep-striking. This seems like more reason again to think about inquisitors and similar non-power armored units.

Since it was already mentioned, your WS5 BS5 dread costs 110 while a WS4 BS4 dread costs 105 in the vanilla codex. I think it ought to cost more than 5 points to get that extra skill. A venerable dread costs 165, so I agree that 120-130 sounds more reasonable of a price. I also question the need to change shrouding to something after hits, wounds, and saves have been made.

What was the outcome of the play-testing you've done? Did your opponents think any unit over or under excelled?

[DarkLink]

I've done maybe half a dozen games with my small gaming group in my hometown (I'm in my college town now). Unfortunately, I'm the dominant player there (the other guys aren't very competitive players, and one of them plays Necrons), and win most of my games normally. My college group is much more competitive, and I don't win too often against them, but I haven't gotten to playtest with them (they don't do many houserule stuff).

We all agreed that The Shrouding is good, as is the ability to Deepstrike and updated True Grit. We also agreed Rites of exorcism granting offensive grenades is fair, as everyone is getting offensive grenades for free now. I threw in defensive grenades, but am still questioning that. Overall, we agreed the new special rules are pretty fair (the only thing I have reservations about is the defensive grenades).

The change to Shrouding is just to make it viable. It represents the enemy missing with their shooting and attacks. The reason why it is taken after wounds and armor saves are to minimize the amount of dice rolled. It's easier to take shrouding saves after all of that, rather than handle it before all those other dice are rolled. I've found while playing with it that it is much simpler, easier and more balanced than the current nightfight style shrouding. Grey Knights invariably find themselves in close range engagements with the enemy, where a nightfight save suddenly becomes useless. On the other hand, if you keep at the edge of nightfight range, suddenly the enemy can't touch your units. I think just simplifying it down to a type of save works better, especially after playing with it. Having a shrouding that actually does something is amazingly exciting for a Grey Knight player.

I haven't tested the Teleport assault troops at their current value (the were originally a little cheaper), and I only used them in one game which they had relatively little effect.

Basic Grey Knights and Terminators also seem fair, as they are basically the same, just with updated special rules and unit entries. The units themselves are pretty much unchanged. I might modify the costs of the psychic powers, though, I'm not sure.

Generally, I tried to keep points costs for the various psychic units contained within the cost of the psychic powers themselves.

I had originally given Terminators True Grit with no charge bonuses, but we agreed after a game that that was too good, so I went back to no True Grit for Terminators.

I'm also not sure how to price the Grand Master. The other two heroes are about right, but the Grand Master has so many bonuses and stuff that I'm not sure how to price him. I probably also need to revise the points for Legacies, but haven't gotten a chance to play with them yet.

Generally speaking:
1: Grey Knight Hero: GM price, psychic power and Legacies prices may need revision, but the rest seems pretty good.
2: Terminators are good, but psychic power costs (and effects) may need some revision
3: Dread is basically an update of the existing rules. I didn't give it WS 5, it already have it. GK Dreads have always been 5pts more than the same SM Dread. I think I'll bump it up to 115pts, as mentioned above. I also accidentally underpriced the Ven. Dread upgrade. As I mentioned above, I'd say the Ven. Dread upgrade (60pts in the SM codex) breaks down well as 10pts for +1 WS, 10pts for +1 BS, and 40pts for the damage reroll ability.
4. Basic Grey Knights are good, psychic powers may need revising.
5. Teleport Marines may need some revising, as it isn't easy to price Heroic Intervention (vanguard are the only unit who have it, and they're too expensive too be very good).
6. Purgation squads: Haven't played with them yet, but they definitely need something good to make players take them.
7. Land Raiders, I didn't even bother to post, as my version is really just a copy of the SM Land Raider.



I do have some other units that I made up. If you go on Bolter and Chainsword, they also have a houserule Inquisition project, though I don't think much more than a bunch of discussion has come of it. They did have some ideas for new units, though, which I took the basic concept of and made my own units. I'll need to go back over those before I post them, though.


Of the units I made up, I included:
1. Paladin Dreadnought (dread variant)
2. A unique transport for Grey Knights called the Aegis and Aegis Hammerfist (basically an up-armored rhino with the assault vehicle rule and bigger guns. The hammerfist is to the aegis what the razorback is to the rhino). BTW, if you can think of a better name than the Aegis APC, I'll take it.
3.Grey Knight Jetbike unit (Bolter and Chainsword's idea)
4. Landspeeders
5. Grand Master Special Character






As Grey Knights currently exist, Inquisitors and assassins don't add much (other than the cheesiness of mystics). Stormtroopers only give you cheap suicide units, and it's better to ally in sisters of battle.

In my updated rules, though, I found that I wasn't forced into a multiple land raider list as Grey knights currently are. Not taking Land Raiders frees up points to buy actual squads. So I could take multiple units and just foot slog them (deepstriking helps a lot, as does improved shrouding), and with teleport assault squads that actually do something, as well as drop pod dreadnoughts, I had more options in the list than just troop Grey Knights and Terminators. Add in the couple of extra units I made up, and the problem with variety vanishes. And that's just with pure Grey Knights. you could add in inquisitor stuff, too, but I dislike Inquisitor units so I haven't made any.

In my opinion, I don't feel Inquisitorial units really belong on the battlefield. Maybe Inquisitors accompanying the Knights, but the Grey Knights are the ordos malleus's military force, for when they don't have the firepower and manpower to handle the threat.

Besides, why would I want to play an Inquisitor when I could instead field more Space Marines with Jedi Powers.

[Dunadan]

This is really cool I'm glad I've been hanging on to my GK models.

[DarkLink]

This is really cool I'm glad I've been hanging on to my GK models.

Glad you like it.



I added an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper unit. It now has the same Special Operations rule IG stormtroopers have, and a variety of transport options, but doesn't get AP 3. 16pts per model for AP 3 isn't worth it. Instead, I made Hellguns Assault 2 24". Nice little boost, but not too powerful.


Edit: IST unit is on the second page of the thread, fyi.