Codex: Grey Knights

[Miggidy Mack]

Reading through it, I think you're definitely coming in a little strong. Especially with shrouding.

Might I suggest just allowing them to use the new point totals/rules for everything in codex space marines, giving them razorbacks & drop pods and then MAYBE adjusting their points down some (about 20). Seems like you'd have a much simpler home brew system to balance as well.

[DarkLink]

I'll admit, I'm a little biased in that I'd like to have a powerful codex for once. And I actually feel that the basic Grey knights and their special rules that I posted work out pretty fairly compared to, say, Plague Marines. That's just me and a few of my friends, though.

However, Shrouding as it is is almost completely useless. I can't remember the last time my opponent has failed a Shrouding test. It's because Grey Knights do their fighting up close and personal, so there's never a chance to take advantage of the 31.5" range.

I could decrease the range of the Shrouding to something more like nightfight, but the shorter the average range gets, the exponentially more powerful it gets. Because of the way Grey Knights play (primarily short-ranged firefights) we either have a fair shrouding that ends up being worthless, or an OP shrouding like eldar Harlequin veil of tears. I found it much more simple to change the way the Shrouding works.

And Grey Knights really, really need some form of defense. Otherwise, they're just as easy to kill as normal Space Marines, but cost way, way more. When you have so few models, all the enemy needs is a power fist or two and you almost inevitably have a dead squad.

I also try to minimize changes to the units. I only added a few options (like deepstriking and squad psychic powers), changed up a few special rules and streamlined the unit enteries. And made the Grand Masters totally BAMF, but that was because I couldn't help myself.







One peculiarity about us Grey Knight players is that despite the fact that Grey Knights need a cheap transport option, we refuse to support the idea of our elite Grey Knights riding in a stinkin' rhino. Rhinos are for chumps and stormtroopers. You can browse the Inquisition section on Bolter and Chainsword and you'll probably get this vibe from there in their homebrew rules discussions.

One of the units that I did make up, but haven't posted yet, is a medium transport that would fill a similar gap as the Rhino. It had better armor and bigger guns, and was obviously more expensive, something in the range of a tooled up Devilfish (a bit over a hundred points, give or take).



I have actually thought about making a non-codex chapter army list similar to what you mention, though. Basically it's all Tactical Marines with Storm Bolters and good True Grit (so they count as having 2 CCW's), and I think Fearless and two special weapons in a squad, for 18-20pts per model. I think I actually did a unit entry for the basic Tactical squad (which filled both tactical and assault roles), but never really more than that.




Edit: I'll go through and update some of the prices, though. There are some errors (like the venerable dread upgrade cost) and some things that I definitely underpriced, like a lot of the psychic powers

I'll probably throw some more of the other units I've made in, too, though some need more work (I'm not sure how to do a Grey Knight Dreadnought Varient. It should be good at killing Monstrous creatures, though, which is tough to do).

[Miggidy Mack]

Forge World disagrees with you on whether or not GK's will ride in a Rhino

At the end of the day they ARE a space marine chapter. They aren't going to refuse to ride in a Rhino. The rhino is a proud servant of the Imperium, just as a space marine is. I think GK's have more to worry about than whether a rhino is beneath them!

It's fine if other forums have that vibe. The people with actual control over the IP disagree with them. The only reason the current codex isn't more robust is GW's refusal to actually make FAQ's and Errata that matter. Forge World is doing it for them.

Frankly I consider Daemonhunters a Forge World army now.

[DarkLink]

Forge World disagrees with you on whether or not GK's will ride in a Rhino

At the end of the day they ARE a space marine chapter. They aren't going to refuse to ride in a Rhino. The rhino is a proud servant of the Imperium, just as a space marine is. I think GK's have more to worry about than whether a rhino is beneath them!

It's fine if other forums have that vibe. The people with actual control over the IP disagree with them. The only reason the current codex isn't more robust is GW's refusal to actually make FAQ's and Errata that matter. Forge World is doing it for them.

Frankly I consider Daemonhunters a Forge World army now.

I've never seen a forgeworld Grey Knight Rhino unit entry. Last I checked (and I checked just now), the psycanon razorback was for Inquisitors and IST's only, NOT Grey Knights.

Anyways, you bring up a good point. I tried to make these rules by updating existing rules, rather than completely rewriting everything. I'll let GW do all that re-writing, I'll just update stuff. Unfortunately, about the only significant thing forgeworld has done is give GK's Land Raider Redeemers (which are awesome, btw), and give Inquisitors and IST's a few extra transport options.

[Dunadan]

Something else to consider: fluff-wise and stat-wise the psycannon was based on the 3rd ed assault cannon. Should the new version reflect that, being based points wise and stat wise on the 5th ed assault cannon (but still with the suspensors)?

[Atrotos]

*Applause* Good job, some really nice stuff here but I'm afraid you fell short of the mark. You gave in to the kneejerk reactions of your peers and you didn't go all the way - the result is that some of your rules are overburdened because you did your best to show that you've based them off of GW's current ones knowing that GW hates the Grey Knights almost as much as they hate the Dark Angels.

1. Drop True Grit and just give them 2 attacks period - this will let you circumvent issues that arise when they buy special weapons.

2. Your Shrouding is a good solution but fluff-wise I don't think you should have it save you from close combat attacks - that may be going too far balance wise as well. Maybe include a 5+ Invul against attacks in close combat as part of the same Special Rule.

3.Deep Strike SR is a nice touch but you should avoid rules that overturn other rules (i.e. no getting around Officers of the Fleet). It makes the game more convoluted. Instead try a Deathwing assault approach to it where you get half of your guys automatically. Or come up with something more unique - don't be afraid to tread new ground.

4.Give GKs the Teleport Homer for free. The Targeter was never meant for GKs I don't think. Either make it free or get rid of it. 1 pt upgrades are bad game design because there's no choice. Give them the option for a thunder hammer or two in the squad - this is the Ordo Malleus.

5. Your standard GK Dread should come with all the Grey Knight perks. +1 Attack over the regular Dread, The shrouding just like Bjorn has and... wait for it... the ability to teleport. Plus it should come with an area-of-effect buffer like the Land Speeder Storm has against Deep Strikers. With all this the Venerable Dread will be unnecessary. Please price accordingly.

6. Not sold on the Warp Spider rule for the Grey Knights simply because the Warp Spiders already have it. Rather give them the Gate of Infinity Psychic Power. Combined with Heroic Intervention this will make them terrifying.

7.Why don't all your heroes have WS 6? They're cooler than Space Marines remember? I would even hazard WS 7 for the GM but Calgar didn't get it so I'm not sure. Certainly it would make sense seeing as Daemon Princes are WS 7 and DPs are the GM's Kellogg's Corn Flakes.

8. Legacies are a great idea but you're ripping off the Space Wolves and I don't believe that each codex should stack benefits on top of the last one - greater creativity may be required here. Maybe make them an army wide option to reflect some dire "Mission". After all if the GKs are there **** has really hit the fan. Side note: USRs are off limits - no overturning Eternal Warrior, that's dangerous ground in terms of game balance.

9. Psychic powers. I think you failed here. Why? Because you followed GW's example and while that can smooth over transitions you've chosen the wrong codex to this with, the Inquisitions codicies are terrible. Give yourself more FREEDOM! The GK's are ALL psykers why is one guy doing all the work?! Read up on the IG Psyker Battle Squad. This is what GK psychic powers should be like - their strength should be based on the number of guys in the squad in accordance with the fluff. Their praying, being surrounded with Holy Light, their chants are taken up by more and more battle brothers etc. You read Dark Adeptus so you know what I'm talking about. Leave the personal psychic powers to the heroes.


Go ahead. Do it. Make them powerful. I'm always telling people to make up their own rules and to make them good. Why? Because you really can't make the game much more imbalanced than it already is without trying really hard. Check out my Stellan Hoplites posted on the board. You know what the most common complaint I get about them? Marbo. I call my character Vespor so people think I made him up.

If you don't make them as powerful as other 5th Ed codicies GW (eventually) will. The question is will you let them spoon-feed you or will take matters into your own hands?

Good luck, good gaming.

[DarkLink]

*Applause* Good job, some really nice stuff here but I'm afraid you fell short of the mark. You gave in to the kneejerk reactions of your peers and you didn't go all the way - the result is that some of your rules are overburdened because you did your best to show that you've based them off of GW's current ones knowing that GW hates the Grey Knights almost as much as they hate the Dark Angels.

All I'll say is that I'm fairly competitive with Grey Knights as it is, and if I got a huge boost, it'd be a slaughter fest. As it is, in the gaming group I playtested some of these rules with I won most of my games regardless of whether or not I played with normal rules or mine. So it is difficult for me to properly judge the power level of the codex.

1. Drop True Grit and just give them 2 attacks period - this will let you circumvent issues that arise when they buy special weapons.

Thats... a really, really good idea. One less special rule to remember and deal with, without really changing anything significant. I'll make a note to do that.

2. Your Shrouding is a good solution but fluff-wise I don't think you should have it save you from close combat attacks - that may be going too far balance wise as well. Maybe include a 5+ Invul against attacks in close combat as part of the same Special Rule.

I think I'll try that. Maybe I'll make the Aegis give a 5+ invulnerable, to represent the quality of the armor and the psychic protection it grants, and make Shrouding shooting only.

3.Deep Strike SR is a nice touch but you should avoid rules that overturn other rules (i.e. no getting around Officers of the Fleet). It makes the game more convoluted. Instead try a Deathwing assault approach to it where you get half of your guys automatically. Or come up with something more unique - don't be afraid to tread new ground.

Heh, I'd forgotten I'd added the no reserve modifiers. That was before GW FAQ'd that Advisors don't stack, too. I'll probably take that out.

I've though about a Deathwing approach, but don't want to fall into the trap that Drop Pods do; that is, there usually aren't many good targets turn one. Turn 3 is usually about the perfect time to bring down deepstrikers. I actually almost never deepstrike, and I'm not sure what exactly to do with this. I'll have to think about it.

4.Give GKs the Teleport Homer for free. The Targeter was never meant for GKs I don't think. Either make it free or get rid of it. 1 pt upgrades are bad game design because there's no choice. Give them the option for a thunder hammer or two in the squad - this is the Ordo Malleus.

I like the idea of the Thunder Hammer, though I'd never use it (I like str 6 power weapons too much, and with hammerhand on the Justicar, you don't really need a Thunder Hammer). I kinda agree about the Targeters, too, though.

Teleport homers I like as an upgrade, because if I included it in the squad it would cost points, but I almost never deepstrike, so I'd only want to take one or two. I don't really want to have to pay the points for one in each squad, every game.

5. Your standard GK Dread should come with all the Grey Knight perks. +1 Attack over the regular Dread, The shrouding just like Bjorn has and... wait for it... the ability to teleport. Plus it should come with an area-of-effect buffer like the Land Speeder Storm has against Deep Strikers. With all this the Venerable Dread will be unnecessary. Please price accordingly.

That's an interesting idea. I do have a variant Dread I'm thinking about (Paladin Dreadnought), so I might drop the venerable upgrade, and replace it with the unique variant.

6. Not sold on the Warp Spider rule for the Grey Knights simply because the Warp Spiders already have it. Rather give them the Gate of Infinity Psychic Power. Combined with Heroic Intervention this will make them terrifying.

Warp spider thing was just something to make them like Jump Troops, but more Grey Knight-y. I like your idea better, I'll do that.

7.Why don't all your heroes have WS 6? They're cooler than Space Marines remember? I would even hazard WS 7 for the GM but Calgar didn't get it so I'm not sure. Certainly it would make sense seeing as Daemon Princes are WS 7 and DPs are the GM's Kellogg's Corn Flakes.

I've been tempted to make the GM WS 7, but I've already stacked tons of upgrades on him, and don't want to make him more expensive. I also though I gave Battle Captains WS 6, but I might have mis-typed that. Brother Captains are basically terminator sargents, but a little better, so I kept them at WS 5. They need I 5 more than WS 6, but the whole point of the Brother Captain is to have a cheap HQ.

8. Legacies are a great idea but you're ripping off the Space Wolves and I don't believe that each codex should stack benefits on top of the last one - greater creativity may be required here. Maybe make them an army wide option to reflect some dire "Mission". After all if the GKs are there **** has really hit the fan. Side note: USRs are off limits - no overturning Eternal Warrior, that's dangerous ground in terms of game balance.

Yeah, I'm totally ripping off Space Wolves. I saw the saga thing and thought "that's perfect". I'll keep it for now, unless someone thinks up a unique system.

Destroy Daemon is probably going to go, I just included it for now because it's awesome (and GK's effectively have the "ignore eternal warrior" part as it is).

9. Psychic powers. I think you failed here. Why? Because you followed GW's example and while that can smooth over transitions you've chosen the wrong codex to this with, the Inquisitions codicies are terrible. Give yourself more FREEDOM! The GK's are ALL psykers why is one guy doing all the work?! Read up on the IG Psyker Battle Squad. This is what GK psychic powers should be like - their strength should be based on the number of guys in the squad in accordance with the fluff. Their praying, being surrounded with Holy Light, their chants are taken up by more and more battle brothers etc. You read Dark Adeptus so you know what I'm talking about. Leave the personal psychic powers to the heroes.

I like the idea of squad based powers. I only gave the Justicar's psychic powers to represent that the rest of the squad's power was tied up in the battle meditations like the Shrouding and Rites of Exorcism, but I think I'll add a squad psychic power option, kind of like how Terminators can currently take Holocaust on the squad. I've got a few ideas for some powers, and if anyone else has some, go ahead and post.

Go ahead. Do it. Make them powerful. I'm always telling people to make up their own rules and to make them good. Why? Because you really can't make the game much more imbalanced than it already is without trying really hard. Check out my Stellan Hoplites posted on the board. You know what the most common complaint I get about them? Marbo. I call my character Vespor so people think I made him up.

I have to agree with you here. I wrote these rules to have a powerful, competitive codex. I'm not going to go from having a overpriced, underpowered codex, to an overpriced, reasonably powered codex. I want a well priced, powerful codex. That's the whole point of writing my own rules. I'll just restate that I'd probably do really well with these rules as it is, so I'm not too worried about giving them more of a boost, though I'll add more units and such eventually.

If you don't make them as powerful as other 5th Ed codicies GW (eventually) will. The question is will you let them spoon-feed you or will take matters into your own hands?

I certainly hope GW updates us with a really powerful codex. With the way current codecies are going, I'll be pretty happy with what they do with Grey Knights (unless they make Inquisitor mandatory. Inquisitors are stupid, I play for the Space Marines with Jedi Powers).

Good luck, good gaming.

You too

[DarkLink]

Something else to consider: fluff-wise and stat-wise the psycannon was based on the 3rd ed assault cannon. Should the new version reflect that, being based points wise and stat wise on the 5th ed assault cannon (but still with the suspensors)?

Maybe on vehicles. I'll think about it. Probably not, though.

[Dunadan]

What if instead of legacies, GK heroes could take special missions?
Example:

Purge the Taint: At the start of the game, before setup, nominate one non-vehicle unit in your opponent's army. That unit gains a 5+ invulnerable save. In an Annihilation Mission, the nominated unit is worth an additional kill point if you destroy it, but your opponent scores a kill point if it is still alive at the end of the game. In an objectives game, the last model in the unit remains on the table when it is killed, and becomes an objective.

Retrieve the Artefact: At the start of the game, before setup, nominate one independent character in your opponent's army. That character gains a Daemonsword and is worth an additional kill point in kill point games, or becomes an objective when slain.

Daemonsword: Close combat, S+1, Power weapon

[DarkLink]

That's an interesting idea. You could have generic missions which grant bonuses based on what that mission would require.

Banishment: Grey Knight mission is to destroy enemy leaders; bonuses against monstrous creatures and independent characters

Cleansing: Grey Knights mission is to cleanse the area of all enemies; grants bonuses against infantry

Purification: Grey knight mission is to defend and purify some objective; makes more units scoring

Recovery: Grey Knights must recover a holy artifact; one enemy unit or objective counts as double killpoints/objectives for the Grey Knights

Prevention: Grey Knights must stop a Daemon from being summoned. Don't know what bonuses this could give.