Empire Core Choices?

[Bigred]

So lets get down to brass tacks.

I'm starting Empire, and I want to hear the skinny on your core choices.

In particular, what are the recommended State Troops combos and how to you use them with the detachment system.

I almost never hear anyone talking about them.

HELP!

[BilboBaggins]

Personally I go with Halberds (but have used Swordsmen and Spears in a pinch) with detachment of free company (got to love 2 attacks each) and if I have the points another detachment of Halberds (S4).

My typical Core at 2K was

20 Halberds Full command with detachments for counter charge.
10 Handgunners with marksman using Hochland
10 Handgunners with marksman using Hochland
8 Knights Full Command
8 Knights Full Command (I loved 6th edition because these were inner circle as core)

[Kieranator K82]

Well Mr Bigred, my Core seems to be:

- 20 Swordsmen with 2 detachments of 10 Halberdiers
- 20 Spearmen with 2 detachments of 10 Handgunners
- 10 Crossbowmen
- 8 Knightly Orders
- 29 Flagellants and a Priest, who is obviously a Hero but must be mentioned here.

Now I haven't played a single game yet, but theoretically this is how I'd do things:

- The first group are the main combat section. The swordsmen are the parent unit and they'll usually charge the front. With a better save than the halberdiers, they should be able to survive better while the Halberdiers deliver 20 Strength 4 attacks in the flanks.
- The second group are more for defense. The Handgunners provide ranged support for the army, while also standing and shooting if the Spearmen get charged. I'd probably put this unit at an important landmark or chokepoint.
- The Crossbowmen also provide ranged support, even giving cover fire to Handgunners if they are advancing.
- The Knights do everything that heavy cavalry do, targeting weak points and whatever.
- The Flagellants are just crazy guys for ripping people up.

[Aldramelech]

I used to run a big unit of Halberdiers with detachments of Handgunners on one side and Swordsmen on the other.
If you get charged the guns stand and shoot and if you charge/get charged you can whack the Swords in on the flank.

I have seen lots of people play Empire and complain that its no good and its impossible to win with them. In all these cases the player is not using the detachment system and I ask why? Why wouldn't you use it? Its a fundamental part of the army, its how its designed to work. If your not using detachments then your not playing the army properly.

[Bigred]

I agree Aldramech. While Empire isn't a super top-tier army, I have seen some super good natinoally ranked players really nail other"uber" armies with it.

So fundamentally it seems like Empire is going to be about *playing* at peak ability, instead of just making deathstar lists. I figure the detachment system must have a key part to play but almost no one ever seems to use it (kind of like Space Marine combat tactics).

I would love to hear about not just army composition, but deployment and how you guys USE detachments on the tabletop.

Here are some comments from other threads here:

-Screen your parent units with tiny groups of archers who pull chargers away in bad directions with skillful use of the charging skirmishers rules, then flank em in your turn.

-Intersperse tiny 3x3 detachments between parent units 1" behind the front line so they can't be charged by most enemies (tiny frontage), but can still counterchage effectively.

-Interweave detachments in a checkerboard pattern with other parent units/ detachments (almost roman legion manipular formation) with screens up front (who flee, leaving the chargers high and dry) and shooters interspersed inbetween parent units to stand and shoot. (basically give yourself an extra turn of protection and 2 extra turns of shooting to soften up enemies.

It seems like we will need diagrams for some of this stuff...

[Lord Azaghul]

I will freely admin I had a hard time using the detachment system, but I also wanted to build a knight centered army - empire was not the best choice.

One of the reasons I stopped playing this army because once I saw that knights were to ineffective, I began using the detachment system in smaller games, but I just didn't want to buy 100+ swordsman, to really take full advantage of the system at 2k!

The other problem I had was no one would actually charge the front of the parent. They would simply chew up the detachment first, then be in a position to flank the parent, or out of the parents charge arc. Or if I had taken handgunners or xbows they were often not in support range for the stand and shoot option.

The uses I did find (that worked) were to take 3x3 unit of free comany as detachements - I didn't own any halberts. Small units of archers worked ok, but it seemed like an expensive meat shield (when points may have been better spend else where)

[Aldramelech]

I agree Aldramech. While Empire isn't a super top-tier army, I have seen some super good natinoally ranked players really nail other"uber" armies with it.

So fundamentally it seems like Empire is going to be about *playing* at peak ability, instead of just making deathstar lists. I figure the detachment system must have a key part to play but almost no one ever seems to use it (kind of like Space Marine combat tactics).

I would love to hear about not just army composition, but deployment and how you guys USE detachments on the tabletop.

Here are some comments from other threads here:

-Screen your parent units with tiny groups of archers who pull chargers away in bad directions with skillful use of the charging skirmishers rules, then flank em in your turn.

-Intersperse tiny 3x3 detachments between parent units 1" behind the front line so they can't be charged by most enemies (tiny frontage), but can still counterchage effectively.

-Interweave detachments in a checkerboard pattern with other parent units/ detachments (almost roman legion manipular formation) with screens up front (who flee, leaving the chargers high and dry) and shooters interspersed inbetween parent units to stand and shoot. (basically give yourself an extra turn of protection and 2 extra turns of shooting to soften up enemies.

It seems like we will need diagrams for some of this stuff...

It is key. The Empire army without detachments is a collection of very average human units with no real advantages, the detachment system is what pulls it all together and makes the force play as an army as opposed to a collection of individual units. Used properly it can be brutally effective, but it is hard to master, practice with it is also key.

People moan alot about the effectiveness of Knights but have missed the point entirely. Knights are not the key unit in the Empire force, they are a force multiplier, there to bolster the effectiveness of the Key Infantry formations.

The Empire are the classic example of combined arms warfare. Artillery gives you the long punch (Battlefield interdiction) threatens big nasties and can break up large horde formations. Archers and Pistolliers are your skirmishers, use them to block marching and keep the initiative, use them to stop your opponent maneuvering against those detachments. Knights should be there to support those infantry formations, not charging off into the distance trying to win the battle on their own, they will die and serve no purpose then to act as an armored speed bump.

All of the above forces allow you to fight the battle your way, if you allow the enemy the opportunity to pick off detachments, then again your not playing the army properly.

If you do it right you'll have one of the most versatile hard hitting forces in the game.

[Confuddled]

Why wouldnt someone just grab all handgunners, with detachments of handgunners or crossbows/archers, and just become an army that shoots a ton of things?

Because BS-based shooting just isn’t that effective.

1) Each model has a limited firing arc (approx. 45 degrees), and you can’t move and fire with crossbows and handguns.
So, you’re going to have a hard time concentrating all your fire on any one unit.

2) BS3 and range penalties mean you’re hitting on 5s for your first round of shooting (ie when the other guy is at long range).

3) Relatively low strength means that the other guy’s heavy hitters will still have good armour saves (2+/3+), and possibly a ward save to boot.

4) Most newer armies have dedicated missile hunters – fast units that can hit your shooters on turn 2 and/or block LOS to the melee specialists advancing behind them.
And there are additional penalties for trying to hit skirmishers.


Where BS-based shooting excels would be to take down the smaller, lightly-armoured support units that the other guy uses to control your movement (fast cavalry, basically).

So fundamentally it seems like Empire is going to be about *playing* at peak ability, instead of just making deathstar lists. I figure the detachment system must have a key part to play..

Well, technically, its about:
1) Using your mandatory 2+ Great Cannon as equalizers. :wink: They help keep the big gribblies and heavy cavalry honest.

2) Advancing aggressively with your detachments – when he charges, you either flee or hold. Both work depending on the type of detachment and the distance from which he’s charging. Key objectives are to:
a) Slow him down;
b) Pull him out of position
Ideally, you use the detachments to pull advancing enemy units (heavy cavalry in particular) into a position where you can hit him in the flank with a cannonball or two...

Simply camping with detachments just doesn’t work so well - a) You don’t have much room if/when things go wrong.
b) Against some of the nastier melee units in play these days, counter-charging with a detachment just means you’re giving more enemy models the opportunity to strike back.

3) Main blocks move up and/or countercharge or hold.


Traditional Empire armies (lotsa infantry) rely heavily on coordination and static combat resolution to win combats (and games).
Trouble is:
1) Poor to above-average Ld makes coordination difficult when fear/terror-causing units are a lot more common.

2) Static CR alone just doesn’t work so well anymore (some might argue with cause that static CR alone never did work!)…
a) Shock armies can dish out enough attacks to chew through an Empire regiment with ease – they might not break you on the charge, but they’re not likely to lose combat either.
It doesn’t help that all sorts of pesky big gribblies have access to ward/regeneration saves that allow them to shrug off cannon fire…

b) Grinding armies can out-grind an Empire army.

c) Magic-heavy armies have access to excellent money-shot spells that can fry entire regiments with a single successful casting.


A combined-arms Empire army (3+ regiments of State troops with detachments, 2+ cannon, 2+ cavalry/fast cavalry squadrons) can still work pretty well against other combined-arms Empire army (and most army books released before 2008).

Playing in a moderated/comped environment? You’ll have a chance at a technical win, especially if you’re up against a less-experienced/sloppy player who’s just coasting on the strength of a new army book.

Playing in an open environment?
You’d probably do better to invest in Flagellants, a War Altar, cannon and a steam tank or two…