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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aenir View Post
    Why wouldnt someone just grab all handgunners, with detachments of handgunners or crossbows/archers, and just become an army that shoots a ton of things?
    Because BS-based shooting just isn’t that effective.

    1) Each model has a limited firing arc (approx. 45 degrees), and you can’t move and fire with crossbows and handguns.
    So, you’re going to have a hard time concentrating all your fire on any one unit.

    2) BS3 and range penalties mean you’re hitting on 5s for your first round of shooting (ie when the other guy is at long range).

    3) Relatively low strength means that the other guy’s heavy hitters will still have good armour saves (2+/3+), and possibly a ward save to boot.

    4) Most newer armies have dedicated missile hunters – fast units that can hit your shooters on turn 2 and/or block LOS to the melee specialists advancing behind them.
    And there are additional penalties for trying to hit skirmishers.


    Where BS-based shooting excels would be to take down the smaller, lightly-armoured support units that the other guy uses to control your movement (fast cavalry, basically).



    Quote Originally Posted by Bigred View Post
    So fundamentally it seems like Empire is going to be about *playing* at peak ability, instead of just making deathstar lists. I figure the detachment system must have a key part to play..
    Well, technically, its about:
    1) Using your mandatory 2+ Great Cannon as equalizers. :wink: They help keep the big gribblies and heavy cavalry honest.

    2) Advancing aggressively with your detachments – when he charges, you either flee or hold. Both work depending on the type of detachment and the distance from which he’s charging. Key objectives are to:
    a) Slow him down;
    b) Pull him out of position
    Ideally, you use the detachments to pull advancing enemy units (heavy cavalry in particular) into a position where you can hit him in the flank with a cannonball or two...

    Simply camping with detachments just doesn’t work so well - a) You don’t have much room if/when things go wrong.
    b) Against some of the nastier melee units in play these days, counter-charging with a detachment just means you’re giving more enemy models the opportunity to strike back.

    3) Main blocks move up and/or countercharge or hold.


    Traditional Empire armies (lotsa infantry) rely heavily on coordination and static combat resolution to win combats (and games).
    Trouble is:
    1) Poor to above-average Ld makes coordination difficult when fear/terror-causing units are a lot more common.

    2) Static CR alone just doesn’t work so well anymore (some might argue with cause that static CR alone never did work!)…
    a) Shock armies can dish out enough attacks to chew through an Empire regiment with ease – they might not break you on the charge, but they’re not likely to lose combat either.
    It doesn’t help that all sorts of pesky big gribblies have access to ward/regeneration saves that allow them to shrug off cannon fire…

    b) Grinding armies can out-grind an Empire army.

    c) Magic-heavy armies have access to excellent money-shot spells that can fry entire regiments with a single successful casting.


    A combined-arms Empire army (3+ regiments of State troops with detachments, 2+ cannon, 2+ cavalry/fast cavalry squadrons) can still work pretty well against other combined-arms Empire army (and most army books released before 2008).

    Playing in a moderated/comped environment? You’ll have a chance at a technical win, especially if you’re up against a less-experienced/sloppy player who’s just coasting on the strength of a new army book.

    Playing in an open environment?
    You’d probably do better to invest in Flagellants, a War Altar, cannon and a steam tank or two…

  2. #12

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    Sensible advice that
    To a New Yorker like you a hero is some kinda weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers!

  3. #13

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    I have been playing empire in tournaments all year, the best core choice empire has is 5 man knight units with no upgrades. Crossbows, and 1 unit of core infantry w/ archer detatchments are also good.

    The list I run is

    War altar
    2 lvl 2s
    warrior priest on horse
    3x5 knights
    19 swords w/ 6 archer detatch and 5 free company detatch
    10 xbows
    2xgreat cannons
    6 outriders
    5 pistoliers
    tank
    hellblaster.


    Alot of people seem to be under the impression that empire are a weak army, this is not even close to true. If built and played properly they are a threat to ANYTHING they go up against(In the 20 GT games I have played with them this year I have only lost 1 game,drawn 4, and won the other 15)

    As you can probably tell by my list, empire is not, as some people think an army that relies on ranks or detatchment counter charging or anything like that. They are an army with access to great magic defense/offense and many useful units. I can count on one hand the number of times my swordsmen have been engaged in combat intentionally (in 50+ games I have played with empire), I have also only done a supporting charge with my detatchments ONCE in all of those games played. Swordsmen(or halberds or spears, doesnt matter) are simply warm bodies for your wizards to hand out in. Detatchments are for protecting your wizard bunker from threats by redirecting. Archer detatchments are also great at screening outriders and pistoliers. Dont worry about trying to put shooting detatchments other then archers in your army, they will limit your deployment and make it harder for you to get line of site for all your units.


    So to sum it up, infantry is not what matters in a good empire army, and a good empire army is very strong.(New skaven might change this though, I expect they will be a really bad matchup for empire)
    Last edited by Jesse; 11-08-2009 at 10:01 PM.

  4. #14
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    Jesse’s Empire army is probably the most “meta” build for Empire and it obviously works. It’s got a good deal of magic offence and defense and will shoot the pants off things. I can see how one would do very well with such an army. I may have to give this sort of an army a try. It looks fun.

    My Empire army is little more militarized as I’m building off a theme more than trying to make the most effective list (maybe that’s why I’m the king of Moderate Victories?).

    I’m using;
    General: Meteoric Armour, Holy Relic, Icon of Magnus, great weapon, pistol
    Mounted BSB w/Griffon Banner
    Warrior Priest: Doomfire Ring, Enchanted Shield
    Level 2: 2x Dispel Scrolls
    30 Spears w/10 Xbow and 8 halberd detachment.
    12 handgunners w/hochland
    12 handgunners w/hochland
    10 Hunstmen
    24 Greatswords w/ 9 swordsmen detachment
    2 Cannons
    6 Pistoliers

    The General leads the Greatswords with the BSB and Warrior Priest in the Spearmen. The wizard goes wherever he’s needed. I like lore of Fire (pure offense) and Heavens (support) but I’ll sometimes take Light if fighting daemons or undead. Combined with the Warrior Priest’s Prayer and the Doomfire Ring I get a nice little magic phase and 4 dispel dice.

    The Handgunner units are bigger than most people use (most I’ve seen are the minimum 10) but I almost always take a few casualties and having the extra few shots can often make the difference in forcing those panic checks. The Hochlands are great for picking on lesser characters like enemy BSBs or even champions. I’ve found them useful for killing the crew off of indestructible Cauldron’s of Blood or any war machine for that matter. Also, never underestimate the value in picking off a unit’s Champion; especially if they are those champs that can take a magic item. They also get into short range a turn before the rest of your gunners. I can’t say enough good things about the Hochland, well worth the points IMO. Try it on an Outrider Champ with BS5 and watch him make all those headshots.

    Pistoliers are probably my most favorite fast cav in the game. Always take the Outrider w/repeater pistols as that’s 4 shots that hit on one better than the rest of the unit. Use them to harass flanks and march-block; slowing down the enemy so you can shoot them more. The Huntsmen perform a similar role, usually on the opposite flank. They are also good for redirecting and just generally getting in the way.
    Cannons are there to do what cannons do; punch large holes in things. Large monsters, chariots, enemy warmachines, anything that can potentially break through my lines are priority #1. Also, when shooting at units with characters in them always remember to line up your shots with them and force those “Look out Sir” rolls. I have killed many a enemy wizard, BSB and even generals when that “1” comes up. Combined with the hochland snipers there is no reason an enemy character should make it across the table without missing at least a single wound.

    I’ve been told that Greatswords are not worth taking. I disagree. They have the best armour save in your army and Stubborn 8 means they are good at tar-pitting an enemy unit. Both my big infantry blocks are designed for this role. Most enemy units that make it to my battle line are not in very good shape due to several rounds of decent shooting. The static combat-res on my Spearmen are 9 (10 if I get the flank). That’s the point of having decent firepower, to whittle down anything scary and then overwhelm it when it finally gets to my side of the table.

    The army is not really a gun-line; it’s more of a combined arms force. You need to isolate and neutralize the greatest threats in you enemy’s force before a single sword stroke is made. Once engaged your sturdy yet squishy infantry needs to be in a position to fend off the enemy through weight of numbers, not skill of arms. Protect the flanks of the infantry block as a smart opponent will know that a good flank charge with even a weak unit will break your line quickly. Detachments counter charging are not always a good idea if it exposes a flank. But beware of getting over run as most detachments cannot stand up to a change on their own. Use terrain to block enemy approaches if possible. Depending on what sort of terrain you use a well placed forest can often protect a unit’s flank better than any detachment ever could. My personal favorite is a building of some sort that your unit can line up right beside. I’ll occupy the building with my xbow detachment and even if they get evicted the enemy can’t charge out of a building and my flank is safe. On the other side I’ll put the greatswords who thanks to being Stubborn will be less likely to break from a flank charge.

    I just started the army this past summer and I’m still working out a lot of the finer points so this is not the final build I’m sure. I really enjoy the Empire as they feel the most “historical” compared to all my other Fantasy armies. You really get the sense that this army could have actually existed at some point in our own history…well, except for the Wizard.


    Dosadi
    "They created a desolation and they called it peace!" -- Tacitus

  5. #15

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    First off... good job on picking the Empire. Probably my favorite fantasy army.

    Regarding detachments: The two best choices IMO are 5 strong archer detachments and 9 strong free company. Redirecting rules for skirmishers mean that for 40pts you get a fantastic buy. Every ranked unit should have one. 9 strong free company in a 3x3 formation are excellent becaues they can be deployed set back from your battle line, where they can't be charged but are in a great position to countercharge. Not a big fan of any other detachments to be honest.

    Regarding your core troops: You really do have a great selection. Swordsmen and spears are the best state troops for your blocks. I personally like xbows over handguns, except if you up grade the champ for hochland.

    The list I've been having alot of fun and success with is:
    Lector on war altar, sword of +1 attack, meteoric iron, speculum
    Lvl 2 w/ 2 scrolls
    Lvl 2 w/ rod, ring
    BSB w/ plate, barded steed, icon of magnus, sword of might

    24 Swords, Standard, Musician,
    5 archer detachment
    5 Knights
    15 Flagellants (core b/c of archlector)
    10 handgunners w/ marksmen and hochland

    20 greatswords, full command
    5 archer detachment
    Cannon
    5 Pistoliers
    5 Pistoliers

    Hellblaster
    Steam Tank

  6. #16
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    Might I make another recommendation?

    This one revolves around the sneaky enchanted item, Van Horstmann's Speculum.
    This special little mirror can be activated at the start of a challenge, and swaps the WS, S, T, I and A values of the two fighting the duel. Essentially, without the enemy knowing, you can get your character into one on one combat with the enemy's most powerful character and do a stat flip. In the best cases, you can take the stats of a special character, such as Archaon, Azhag or even Karl Franz.
    This secret trick will make your enemy
    You think running with scissors is dangerous? Try sky diving with them!

  7. #17

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    Yep, fab item. Never leave home without it! lol
    To a New Yorker like you a hero is some kinda weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers!

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieranator K82 View Post
    Might I make another recommendation?

    This one revolves around the sneaky enchanted item, Van Horstmann's Speculum.
    This special little mirror can be activated at the start of a challenge, and swaps the WS, S, T, I and A values of the two fighting the duel. Essentially, without the enemy knowing, you can get your character into one on one combat with the enemy's most powerful character and do a stat flip. In the best cases, you can take the stats of a special character, such as Archaon, Azhag or even Karl Franz.
    This secret trick will make your enemy
    The treat of the speculum is sometimes enough to stop uber characters from charging my wizards.

    Sitting in Lonely Mountain swapping stories and recipes with Dain.

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