A Letter from woman gamers to the industry.

[Duke]

All I can say is something that has appeared in another thread...

"In the Grim darkness of the far future there are only males."


Duke

[Faolain]

Don't forget on the Eldar side that there are female Shining Spear models as well. I have two of them.

I also have a female High Elf sorceress that I plan on eventually converting into a Farseer.

[Grimwar]

Ok I read this with my eye's bleeding towards the end.

If this person thinks she represents all of "her kind" as "she puts it" then all women gamers are doomed. It's like having jerry springer during his showtime days represent all men. I am honestly insulted for the female gamers.

One example:
"I know its hard to represent women in stories" .

Really it's hard not to giggle when I read that. The writer is blamed for being flawed in a way thats not the writers fault. That's more bias feminism then latent sexism being represented.

She should have just said it bluntly.
Like: "Stop putting us in bikini armor in your illustrations."

People with her point of view only broaden the gender gap in a male dominated game. Touching on the sensitive "segrigational spots" that litter the entire field. The way to get to a point is not avoiding them entirely. But pointing them out like a logical teacher would. Not acting like she's a victim of the 'tyranny'.

I hate sugar coating what people say with nice acting. It blows you off balance and then you put 2 and 2 together to find what they actually said is not befitting how they put it.

I guess I'm just ranting at this point. My point is that she should not "reresent all women gamers" if she is going to butt-kiss and be unequal in her wording. I would put my sister up to rewording it for her, but she would be very 'equal' if you know what I mean. Coming from a family full of females, I say what I say without fear of retaliation.

~GW

[Sangre]

Yeah, I would like to see some more female models; my Guard army is a total sausage fest except for Corporal Vasquez, my Catachan grenade launcher chick. Killed a demon prince once, she did.

I swear to god everyone I know who has that model calls her Vasquez. Why is that?!

[Commissar Lewis]

Dunno, named her after the chick in Aliens of the same name, whom I found to be hot. That's where I got the name Vasquez from. As for other people, could be coincidence or they may have gotten the idea from Aliens as well.

[Katie Drake]

Dude, she was so manly! Eww!

[Morgrim]

Sounds like some males would like a few female models for convertion purposes too, so the issue is hardly a 'political whining of a female minority' and more a 'GW is missing out on a business opportunity'.

Personally, I might be female but I work and study in an industry with a strong male bias, yet also a very neutral attitude to gender. (Almost a 'if you get this far you are worthy, regardless of sex' situation.) I don't care about most of the issues that seem to get raised. No, I don't like over inflated breasts, but that is because I'm not a boob person, not because I am female. I don't feel discriminated against by GW with any of their product lines. And when I hear 'Ard Boyz I don't think of stereotypical gender roles, I think it amusing that for as much as GW hammers about the Imperium, their championship is named after orks.

Storm in a teacup, most of the time.
(Although can I put in a request for more sexy 'chains in flesh' models like the mandrakes and some of the wyches, both genders? kthnks :P )

[Jakain]

Speaking as a male, its sort of interesting that GW doesn't capitalize more on the very effective marketing method of 'sex sells'. There aren't enough sexy looking female models which is interesting since this is a product very much designed for the typical horny, sex-deprived wargaming nerd. However GW probably don't want to go too far in this area since they do have to rely on mom's pocketbooks to fund the next generation of GW customers. That said this is also a predominately 'white' hobby to boot and you'll find even less models representing other races; for example the only Asian Imperial Guard person I can list is 'Hero' from the Last Chancers whereas I can remember two female models in that same squad and the Catachan grenade launcher person.

As for the idea of wanting female options in rulebooks I really think thats dependent on the hobbyist. For example the IG it doesn't specifically say that they have to be men and the very nature of the 40k universe just about anything is accepted as long as its cool --- so feel free to convert your own female Commissars if thats your fancy. The most recent 40k female model I can think of would be that Tau special character who definitely had a great sculptor as its a very nice model.

However model production is pretty damn expensive; we still have ancient Catachans and the like being priced as much as brand new infantry sculpt, etc. So maybe investing in a more 'politically correct' representation is simply cost ineffective especially for a plastic set of both male and females.

[Slann]

I couldn't read the all the threads so many where becoming redundant that I just skipped to the last page , As for the letter I think it is a step in the right direction . Maybe her numbers where off ( well def. ) but who cares her point is made , GW should maybe throw more females onto there sprues , army's of the future are becoming more mixed gender as time goes on its not hard to believe women fight along side men .

Maybe by writing this letter other females will step up and write them too , this is how you get things done let GW know your out there . And know what if they don't wise up and cater more towards females than they should get together and slap them with a law suit , hell GW does it all the time .

[RogueGarou]

GW has made some female Guard models in the past. I have the Last Chancers, Tanith, Catachan, and three Rogue Trader-era female Guard models as well as a couple or three female Commissars. Apparently, they all sell fairly well on Ebay and some gaming groups have had limited run pieces made to use with the Cadian plastics to make female troopers. One of the Perry Twins even made a really nice Catachan female with a heavy bolter slung across her shoulder and standing on the skull of a Tyrannid for a Games Day Open Event a few years ago. Plenty of companies make female models which sell well. Many of them are pretty, attractive models but not really very realistic. For example, a fantasy male is wearing full plate armor while the female counterpart is wearing a thong and her hair or sword to protect her modesty. I freely and openly admit this: I enjoy the female form in all of its glory. I also admit that I like having models which are visually appealing. Sometimes that is because the armor looks cool, the shapes are visually comforting or jarring, and sometimes it is because the sculpt is just sexy. Fortunately, my wife of seven years (and friend of ten years) has similar tastes even though she is not a gamer. She wants to buy me the Forge World Keeper of Secrets because it is sexy but I don't want to spend the money at the moment.

Anyway, sometimes the models are inappropriate. I don't feel the Daemonettes were inappropriate because that is who they are. They are demons. They are sex demons like succubi. They do not have the social mores we have and they have little need for protection in the physical sense. Also,I don't think mammary glands are the eb-all end-all of existence or of what makes a woman a woman. I also don't feel they are obscene. So the Daemonette models were just fine with me. I did not have any of the Rogue Trader or 2e models because I did not find them appealing. I have the 3E and 5E plastics and the only thing I would change is the heads on the plastics; I just didn't like several of them. What I liked most about the old models was their litheness. They looked like they would move swiftly and slice you to ribbons. They seemed to fit what they were.

Back in the Rogue Trader days there was a female model in Power Armor but it looked horrible. I seem to recall that some of the marketing material did call it a Female Space Marine but that was many years ago and it could have been a typo. The Sisters then came along and I really liked them. Since they do not have the same genetic enhancements as a Marine, their Power Armor looks different. I can accept that. Dealing with the scale also means that some things might be exaggerated on the models. OK, I can accept that. I do not find anything untoward about the Sisters models except that they are all in metal. Again, they seem to fit. The armor is different than a Marines armor but the shape underneath the armor is also different.

The female Guard models are some of my favorite models because they are so uncommon. I don't think most of them are too exaggerated and for the most part they look nice. Take the Tanith female model. It is obviously a female model but there is no cleavage and the model is wearing the same uniform of the males. Being Guard, they should all be wearing flak armor but none of the Tanith appear to be wearing it. A note on the real world here about armor and the genders, body armor for women with breasts NEEDS to be different than armor for men without breasts (mammary glands or fatty tissues). This has been proven in combat by the military and in the private sector by several armor manufacturers. If the armor is not shaped differently to allow for the added tissues and to conform to those differences in shape between the two bodies, the armor will fail or will not provide adequate protection. For example, the standard issue armor of the U.S. military works well if the shape underneath it is roughly rectangular, or male shaped. If the shape beneath the armor is shaped differently, it allows gaps in cover to the sides and also can cause damage to the chest cavity when struck if the shape underneath the armor is not roughly flat. This is because the armor is supposed to deform and slow impacts. It does this partly by spreading the impact across the roughly flat surface of the body or chest. The mammary glands or other bodily protuberances of sufficient size will alter the form of the armor during deformation under impact stress. It changes the way it disperses the force and stops the impacting object. Long story short, something under the armor which changes its shape can cause a severe impact to the body under the armor. A man is shot in the chest and if he is relatively flat chested, he should survive. Same for a woman. However, if either of them has something under the armor that changes the shape enough, when they are shot in the chest, the armor bends too much and transmits the force into the body under the armor. The bullet may be stopped but the breastbone or ribs just got hit with the force of a hammer focused into a small area. Bruising of the heart or lungs can occur, broken bones, etc. So, WHEN GW makes some female Guard for us, they should be shaped slightly differently than the male models we currently have. But those differences should be over the whole body of the model.

There are lots of companies making female models out there. That fact alone is a big reason I do not like the GW-only Draconian policies of some folks. Demonblade had their version of Sisters, for example. The Libby models are generally nice models, Libby in Powered Armor comes to mind as being useful. The Libby models are also often described as more everyday woman shaped. I have been very tempted to pick up some Infinity models because their female sculpts are very visually appealing and they have a really cool female sniper; Jessi Banda anyone? I think we can give up any hope at all of Forge World EVER making female models unless the management changes. Several months ago, while a particular group was having custom sculpts done to make female Cadian-esque bits, a letter was received from Forge World which flatly stated they felt making female soldiers in a game where the female models could be killed in the game was inappropriate. Huh, there is that word again. Maybe that will change someday, maybe not.

There are people who will not purchase some models because they do not like them. One person in our gaming group with very strong religious beliefs will only pronounce Daemons as Day-mons and will not say it as De-mons. He also does not like the 3E Daemonettes because of the bared breasts. A tad prudish in my opinion but it takes all kinds of people and all kinds of opinions to make a fun world to live in.

As to the female gamers in 40k and in general, yes, they are out there. They are often treated to the Old Boys or GOLF mentality more often than not. Back when we had a local game shop, many women were treated poorly by a couple of the gaming geeks but those chaps were definitely the ones who would have trouble with getting even an inflatable girlfriend. Once a couple of ladies were part of the store regulars, they brought in others and we wound up with several women in our gaming groups. They were usually involved in the card games and RPGs or board games and I always suspected they did not delve too far into the miniature gaming because they associated them with toys like G.I. Joe or Barbie. Let's face it, we are playing with toys and some people are too "mature" to do that. I even painted every member of a Van Saar gang to resemble different G.I. Joe "action figures". Sadly Airtight was much more effective than Snake-Eyes but that is a different discussion.

I enjoy playing with female models on the table. I prefer they be aesthetically pleasing but I also like them to be somewhat realistic. I enjoy gaming with female players. Actually, I enjoy interacting with women in most any way. If you want an ulterior motive, think of it like this. If you go to most games or tournies, you spend all day chatting and playing with a fellow. I won't even go into some of the more, ahem, unsavory physical and social traits you very well may encounter but we will let the words deodorant, mouthwash, comb, general health, and lack of fill in the blanks. However, if you have the good fortune to square off with a lady, then you can say that you spent the day chatting with a member of the opposite sex who will probably at least smell nicer than the average gentleman you will meet on the game table. And in some areas it is becoming more common to have female gamers present. Across the U.S. it is certainly becoming more prevalent that women are spending more than men on recreation and discretionary items. Advertisers are aware of this and have been changing their marketing for several years due to this trend. I look forward to the diversity this may bring to the game table and to the miniatures ranges I can buy.

Just my views on things, though.