DA Deathwing Assault

[Nimor]

I have seen this argued all over the place and am looking for an answer.

Simply, Can i put my entire army into Deathwing assult?

Answers i have been given at my local store:

-Only half your army can be put in reserve so only half can use the DW assault.

Can somone please point out where it says they are going into reserve when they are placed into the DW assault. As this is being done after warlord traits, so by the time you get to where your picking what goes into reserves you have no army to choose from?

Am I missing somthing?

[Nabterayl]

I have seen this argued all over the place and am looking for an answer.

Simply, Can i put my entire army into Deathwing assult?

Answers i have been given at my local store:

-Only half your army can be put in reserve so only half can use the DW assault.

You know, I was all prepared to say that of course you can do a 100% Deathwing Assault (if you have the right models and gear for it), but I'm not sure that's actually true. Argument follows:

Deathwing Assault reads:

Units of models with both this special rule and Terminator armour can make a Deathwing Assault. After determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are doing so and make a secret note of whether it takes place on turn one or two. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn with no Reserves roll.

So first, to answer your question, yes, making a Deathwing Assault includes being placed in Reserve. This can be seen in two ways. First, the Deathwing Assault rule itself notes that you make no Reserve roll, which would only be relevant if the units were in Reserve in the first place. Second, as the Deep Strike rule states, "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." Since a Deathwing Assault involves making a Deep Strike, it follows that the unit making the Deathwing Assault "must start the game in reserve."

Now on to the 50% limit.

The Reserve rule reads, in relevant part, "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."

So, obviously Deathwing Assault does not force you into Reserves. It's permissive - you may. As always, that means "You may, unless another rule states you cannot."

Contrast this with regular terminator armor. For instance, the Space Marines codex says:

Any model wearing Terminator armour can be teleported onto the battlefield. They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the deep strike rules (emphasis added).

Deathwing Assault has nothing like that. So it appears to me that an all-Deathwing army follows the 6th edition trend against all-reserve, or even heavily-reserved, armies.

As this is being done after warlord traits, so by the time you get to where your picking what goes into reserves you have no army to choose from?

That's not true. You pick warlord traits prior to deploying: "Before either player deploys, they must first each determine their Warlord Traits."

[Tynskel]

I disagree.
You may choose to do Deathwing Assault, which is not reserves. You simply choose which terminator units are doing so. The action involves reserves, but the act of Deathwing Assault is not reserves. You cannot divorce reserves form Deathwing Assault.

Note, you can put Terminators into reserves, but unlike normal terminators, they cannot 'always' do so. Then, you would follow the standard 50%.


The #1 issue though is still having units on the board at the end of turn 1. If you have an entire army using Deathwing Assault, they must come in on Turn 1.

[Nabterayl]

So you read "Units ... can make" as "Units ... can make [regardless of other restrictions]"? I see that reading, but I'm pretty sure that's not sure that's the best way to read rules.

Or am I misunderstanding your argument?

[JMichael]

The order would be:
Roll/decide Warlord Traits
Determine and announce what units will be Deathwing Assaulting
Roll/Choose Psychic Powers
Deploy Forces.

By the time you decide what units to put into reserves, your Deathwing are already in the 'must start in reserves' category (imo) and thus you can and indeed must put them all in reserves.

[Nabterayl]

By the time you decide what units to put into reserves, your Deathwing are already in the 'must start in reserves' category (imo) and thus you can and indeed must put them all in reserves.

Can you explain why they must start in Reserves? It sounds like you're arguing that because you chose to deploy them in a way that requires they be in reserve, they must be in reserve. Which is not what "must" means, I think.

[Kaijne]

I am unsure, so i am waiting to finish picking up the rest of my deathwing units, and sent this one off to the GW FAQ people two weeks ago. Haven't gotten an answer back yet, but i'm hoping the answer is in the next FAQ round for Dark Angels, (which hopefully drops soon).

[JMichael]

Can you explain why they must start in Reserves? It sounds like you're arguing that because you chose to deploy them in a way that requires they be in reserve, they must be in reserve. Which is not what "must" means, I think.

Although the Deathwing rule doesn't really mention that they are in reserves anyway. I see it like Drop Pods, Flyers, or other units that must start in reserves (or otherwise cannot be deployed). They do not count towards the 50% reserves restriction.
And because you choose to deploy said units in Deathwing Assault before you get to the assign reserves step they must be kept off the table.

I think the order is important and deliberate. Otherwise GW may have just said 'during deployment choose which units will be deployed via Deathwing Assault'.

[Nabterayl]

I see that argument, and I agree this is a good case for a FAQ. I think there can be no question that a unit making a Deathwing Assault is in reserve, although I agree 100% that they are not placed in reserve dying deployment.

However, the Reserves rule doesn't say that only half of your deployable units may be placed in reserve. It just says that during deployment, you may have only half of your units in reserve, minus those that must start the game in reserve.

Deathwing Assault is decidedly unlike a flyer or drop pod in that those latter two cases must begin in reserve whether the player likes it or not - and indeed, there are plenty of cases in which a player would rather they didn't. Units only make a Deathwing Assault because the player wants them to. To me, that seems like the very antithesis of "must start in reserve."

Of course, some units have exceptions to the reserve limit that have nothing to do with needing to start in reserve. Jmichael brings up a good point that the codex could have just said during deployment. I would point out, though, that a player knows more about the battle during deployment than he does between deployment and warlord traits. So the codex might have placed DA after warlord traits because it intended DA units to be exempt from the reserve limit, but it might also have placed DA there because you are supposed to make the DA decision with limited information. I don't see how we can decide which is the more likely scenario.

Given that ambiguity, and the fact that I don't see any way to shoehorn DA in under the "must start the game in reserve" clause, it still seems to me best to read DA as counting towards the reserve limit. Maybe that's not what Vetock intended to write, but I think that's what he wrote.

[uglytater]

I think this is going to be a Dante's Axe rule that until it's faq'd, the best thing would be to discuss it with the opponent and rolll off if need be. When I read the rule I just assumed that the units counted towards my reserves, but I can see the other side of the argument.