Space Wolves Q: Jaws of the World Wolf and Arjac's Ranged Thunderhammer attack

[dagonis]

A friend and I are having a rules debate and I would like to get some feed back on this.

Arjac can toss his thunder hammer 6" for a Str10 Ap1 Assault 1 attack. Normally in close combat, a thunder hammer would reduce the target's initiative to 1 assuming they survived the attack. The discussion is about the nature of the ranged attack.

His argument is that the target is reduced to I1 immediately by the ranged attack (since it is a thunder hammer) and thus a Rune Priest could cast Jaws and force the character to have to roll 1 or be removed from play instantly. This would obviously wreck many multiwound high I characters (Greater Deamon of Slaanesh, Abbadon, et al.).

My argument is that there is no mention of the thunder hammer effect in the ranged attack profile. If the designers meant for this to be the case I assume it would read:
"str 10 ap 1 assault 1, thunder hammer"
If my Keeper of Secrets gets hit by it, I believe he still goes at I10 in CC.

Thoughts?

[Gotthammer]

I am in agreance with you, for the same reason you put. While it makes sense from a background point of view, the rules and background do not always marry up, unfortunately.

[Herald of Nurgle]

Though honestly it would make sense in a RAI argument, I think that via RAW you should NOT reduce the initiative. And regardless, doesn't it say that they STRIKE IN CC at I 1. Casting JotWW isn't initiating a CC, so the effects do not stack anyway.

Be sure to come to an agreement when the game/tournament begins.

[dagonis]

The thunder hammer section from the BRB is:

Thunder hammers:
Thunder hammers release a tremendous blast of energy when they strike. A thunder hammer uses the same rules as a power fist. In addition, all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their Initiative to a value of 1 until the end of the next player’s turn. Against vehicles with no Initiative value, whenever a thunder hammer inflicts any damage result it also inflicts a crew shaken result.

I am curious about that initiative modification. Is it an actual changing of the stat or is it a pseudo-modification of the stat (e.g. St6 vs. str4(8) via a PF)? I would assume it is possible for the initiative value to technically read I4(1) for the purposes of that turn as it is a temporary change. For actual characteristic tests the character would possibly then still use their stated I value as a biker marine still has to take a T test at T4 even though their profile is T4(5).

I digress as this is a discussion about the interaction of Arjac's Ranged attack and Jaws, not about the nature of thunderhammers.

[Lerra]

JotWW uses the model's base initiative, not its initiative in close combat. For example, a space marine with a powerfist will take the init test using his base init of 4, not the modified init of 1.

[DarkLink]

JotWW uses the model's base initiative, not its initiative in close combat. For example, a space marine with a powerfist will take the init test using his base init of 4, not the modified init of 1.

Right. The Thunderhammer does not permanately make the model Initiative 1. It simply causes the model to attack at initiative 1, despite the model's normal initiative.

[RogueGarou]

Since he is throwing the hammer, it is given a new profile. The new profile (ranged) does not have the Thunder Hammer rule included in its profile so I do not think it would get the same abilities, just what is included in the ranged profile. Conceptually, imagine that the bearer has to put his weight behind the hammer in close combat to resist the recoil of the hammer when the field generator goes off and transmits its energy into the target. When thrown, the hammer would probably be tossed aside when it discharges as there is no muscle behind the hammer to push the weapon into the target.

[SeattleDV8]

I agree , the thrown weapons profile does not mention the stunning attack.
It should have no effect besides wounding and possible Instant Death.
Though if a model was in CC and was hit and survived the TH attack their Int would be lowered to 1.
I believe the JotWW test would be against Int 1 in that case as it reduces their Int until the end of the next players turn.

[dagonis]

I agree , the thrown weapons profile does not mention the stunning attack.
It should have no effect besides wounding and possible Instant Death.
Though if a model was in CC and was hit and survived the TH attack their Int would be lowered to 1.
I believe the JotWW test would be against Int 1 in that case as it reduces their Int until the end of the next players turn.

I would be willing to take the I test at 1 if took an unsaved TH wound in the previous CC phase.

[mkerr]

My reading allows it (I even talk about it on my [URL="http://www.chainfist.com/2009/10/using-jaws-of-world-wolf.html"]JotWW Tactica[/URL] on Chainfist).

Here's the skinny:

1. He throws his Thunder Hammer. It never stops being a Thunder Hammer and it's a Thunder Hammer that hits you (i.e., as opposed to being a beam that shoots out of it or a summoned strike of lightning).

2. "Thunder Hammer" isn't an Additional Weapon Characteristic, like Gets Hot! or Sniper. It's not something that would appear in the statline -- it comes from the fact that it's a Thunder Hammer.

3. The Thunder Hammer entry in the rulebook doesn't restrict the wounding to wounds caused in close combat. It says "all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling".

So, by my reading, Arjac's thrown attack is still a Thunder Hammer and still causes the Thunder Hammer effect.

-- mkerr