Space Wolves Q: Jaws of the World Wolf and Arjac's Ranged Thunderhammer attack

[MVBrandt]

That was uncivil?

This discussion is a bit too much of a vortex. I'd continue ours that we've been having via PM if you'd like, Nab.

Working on a $1B proposal, and spending too much time rehashing arguments

[Nabterayl]

I've certainly seen more uncivility on the internet I just didn't want this to devolve into snark sniping, you know?

By all means, continue (or not) in a way that doesn't screw your real life. I'm sure we're all in favor of responsible gaming (or ... gaming meta-hobby ... or ... whatever this is ) I am very curious about your instinct that the rules for which the term "thunder hammer" stands are somehow not applicable to the profile. You are sounding like your reason for that is that the rule states, as it were, "THIS IS THE PROFILE," and the rules for which "thunder hammer" stands are not included in the profile. What I don't get is how you distinguish between this case and other situations in which the rule states, "THIS IS THE PROFILE," and other rules are included in the long-form description. Surely it's not because they used the defined term "thunder hammer" rather than writing out all the rules for which "thunder hammer" stands?

[DarkLink]

Foehammer is not a Thunder Hammer Special Close Combat Weapon at range.
It's a 6" S10 AP1 Assault 1 weapon.

There, I did it in 20 words.

As a PS,

all of the examples from 4th edition (and prior?) codices are sort of irrelevant, given the BRB rules weren't the same either, and none of them are relevant to the current world and syntax. Checking post-5th codices would be more effective ... haven't proofed all the backlog to see which if any of those were done.

Now we've come full circle, back the the first half dozen pages where mkerr would repeatedly point out that there is nothing that causes Foehammer to loose the Thunderhammer effect when shooting. It doesn't stop being a Thunderhammer, even when used as a ranged weapon.

[ShadowDeth]

There's nothing in the text to indicate that the shooting attack 'is' a thunder-hammer, either.

"Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile."

The second that sentence from the codex states it 'can' be used as a ranged weapon, it has to then follow the profile for the shooting attack. There is no "Well, it's a thunder hammer so why not!?"

No. That's not logical adhesion to the rules. That's illogical connection of two completely unrelated points, the (unfortunate) description of the weapon somewhere in the vicinity of the actual rules.

I really don't understand how so many people can incorrectly decipher the syntax in that sentence.

[MVBrandt]

Since none of us here are being judged by the gods of English, someone can easily just break it down differently and claim it's proper syntax ... been done already.

While I agree w/ you, this one's not going anywhere new.

[mkerr]

I think that Nabterayl did an awesome job of deconstructing the sentence a few pages back. I suggest that you skim his fantastic posts before you make the assumption that any of the readers are incorrectly deciphering the syntax.

Oh, and one demerit for thread necromancy.

[MVBrandt]

I think that Nab's deconstruction is not perfect, no matter how much it agrees w/ your premature BOLS frontpage post. It's perfectly deconstructable either way, by about every law of English out there. That said, we took our discussions on the subject to PM ... and there it will stay as far as I'm concerned (in case Nab wants to carry it on again).

For my point, I wasn't ever convinced in the least by the pro-I reduction args, and it seems the same went the other way. It doesn't much matter. It is kind of a thread necro.


As a PS - in reading back over some of this, I hope nobody here actually got emotionally involved in this. It's a tabletop game ... nothing about it is all that big a deal, and it isn't very deep or tactically intimidating. Rules lawyering is more of a forum troll sport of its own ... the impacts on the trivial game of Warhammer 40k are pretty light, so naturally getting upset about it is a little unnecessary.

IN a real world situation, this kind of debate never happens. Intelligence or dicing off wins out quickly. When you have intelligent enough people desperately attached to their points of view, forums enable folks to take time and construct arguments that sound correct and support their view ... this doesn't really work in the give and take of real world conversation, and the results of these discussions are never binding in any reasonable man's book. It's a silly game, with badly written rules put together by average joes. Not a wonder or a big investment of emotion required ... that they sometimes turn out a lil ambiguous.

[rle68]

My reading allows it (I even talk about it on my [URL="http://www.chainfist.com/2009/10/using-jaws-of-world-wolf.html"]JotWW Tactica[/URL] on Chainfist).

Here's the skinny:

1. He throws his Thunder Hammer. It never stops being a Thunder Hammer and it's a Thunder Hammer that hits you (i.e., as opposed to being a beam that shoots out of it or a summoned strike of lightning).

2. "Thunder Hammer" isn't an Additional Weapon Characteristic, like Gets Hot! or Sniper. It's not something that would appear in the statline -- it comes from the fact that it's a Thunder Hammer.

3. The Thunder Hammer entry in the rulebook doesn't restrict the wounding to wounds caused in close combat. It says "all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling".

So, by my reading, Arjac's thrown attack is still a Thunder Hammer and still causes the Thunder Hammer effect.

-- mkerr

i agree 100% correct finally someone sees the light!.. now wether or not it reduces the init to 1 for jaws is another issue entirely

and the one fact every single one of you has failed to mention it states in teh description it is thrown not shot, that right there makes it a thunderhammer attack not a """shooting""" attack arjac is throwing the thunderhammer not shooting lightning or other garabage out of it

[hisdudeness]

Sweet, since it is not a shooting attack I can use it during the movement phase!

[gcsmith]

what weapon type is it?