Daemons , the Quadcannon and the Aegis Defence Line

[Daemonette666]

Now this is a discussion on a fun and interesting tactic, and also just looking to see if there are any flaws in it. It should go into the tactics section, but it is neither an army list or a battle report, so I decided to put it here.

Going through the new daemon codex tonight, and comparing it with the old codex noting the changes, I noticed a few things that would make a few units really good at daemoning the quad gun.

All the lesser daemons have a BS skill. Even though they generally do not have any ranged weapons (except for the ones the heralds can get) they can be used to sit behind the Aegis defence line and shoot the quadcannon. Now 3 types of lesser daemons come to the fore here -

Nurglings - they are non scoring troops (because they are swarms) so are normally used as a covering line for other models, which is just the same as their invul save 5+ (unless you are shrouded). If using the old models for them, they sit really low behind the ADL and need 4+ to hit the target with re-rolls, and Line of Sight is measured from the actual weapon, as you can assume the weapons has control panel with monitor and joystick to allow you to shoot with it behind cover, oh and they get shrouded and Defence grenades for being Daemons of Nurgle.

Bloodletters - They stick up behind the ADL, but with a BS of 5 they need a 2+ to hit with re-rolls, and the cover save allows them to survive longer. Any enemy charging over the ADL without assault grenades, will be at a lower init, and they have AP 3 strength 4 weapons (with Hatred for re-rolls) when the enemy decide to assault you lines.

The last type is Plaguebearers who again have only a BS of 3, meaning a 4+ to hit, and shrouded, and defence grenades. They also have 4+ poisoned swords, and a Tgh of 4.

Units like the Helldrake with Bale flamer will have a field day with many of the units used for this type of role, but the invul save the daemons get might allow for a couple of them to survive.

It is something I noticed, but might make your opponent sit up and take notice when your daemons decide to sit back behind cover rather than charge in to your waiting gun line.

[Tyrendian]

*sigh* GW rules and fluff kicking each other in the ____ again...
not saying your tactics are not valid or something -well spotted.
It just makes me shudder to imagine Bloodletters (i mean, BLOODLETTERS!) hanging back to man a quad gun... is there any way to get more out of character with a unit? giving them a BS was a crappy idea in the first place... but to make it that good is just bonkers...
Then there's Nurglings... by definition they shouldn't even be able to reach the control panel you mentioned... except maybe if they build a pyramid out of themselves (wait... that might acutally look hilarious... maybe someone build that? bunch o' Nurglings on top of each other, with the one on top then holding the joystick... lulzy)...
Plaguebearers are a bit better, but doesn't it say somewhere whatever they touch starts to rust and dissolve? So good luck firing that Quad Gun more than once... which would also apply to Nurglings by the way (another way to make the display even more awesome? but a half dissolved Quad Gun next to the one they are trying to fire? )

[Tynskel]

I have always treated it as the model can fire the weapon, instead of their personal weapon.
Only Horrors (troops) have guns, and that is after a psychic test.

[Sly]

You are correct, you can have the daemons with any BS>0 man the Quad Gun. Now, maybe I'm thinking of 5th edition, but I thought that a model's LOS was traced from its eyes, and both the shooting model and the gun model had to have LOS in order to shoot an artillery gun, so by my memory, Nurglings couldn't fire it from behind an ADL (except at Flyers).

BTW, why wouldn't you mention Horrors? IMO they are the best unit to use, since they're already a shooting unit so you put an objective holder back there that actually does something for you in addition to holding the objective. And their ability to reroll 1s on saves works nicely with the 4+ cover from the ADL, and very interestingly with a 2+ cover if they Go To Ground. And a 5++ with re-roll 1s on 9-pt models makes them reasonably tough against Baleflamers, which are currently one of the best and certainly the most common way to clear out squads from behind an ADL. Additional point is that due to Brotherhood of Psykers rule, you only need to expose 2 Horrors to enemy fire at the low points of an ADL... one to throw the flames from the entire squad through it, and one to fire the Quad Gun. So you're limiting return damage from enemy fire.

It's what I'm going to run: 2 Nurgle Soulgrinders (because they are so juicy behind an ADL), an a squad of Horrors with a Herald and a Quad Gun. If a single Herald, he'll be Level 3 so he can Guide both SGs and also fire a blast, and if I go with 2 squads of Horrors/Heralds, then each Herald with Guide one of the Grinders. Or maybe leave them at level 3, and Guide their own squad in addition to the Grinders.

[Nabterayl]

You are correct, you can have the daemons with any BS>0 man the Quad Gun. Now, maybe I'm thinking of 5th edition, but I thought that a model's LOS was traced from its eyes, and both the shooting model and the gun model had to have LOS in order to shoot an artillery gun, so by my memory, Nurglings couldn't fire it from behind an ADL (except at Flyers).

Models still shoot from their eyes, with a few notable exceptions such as vehicles. The shooting rules on page 12 state that to target an enemy at least one model in the shooting unit "must have line of sight (see page 8)," and page 8 in turn states that "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its eyes" (emphasis added).

You're also quite right that gun models in an Artillery unit cannot shoot unless line of sight can be traced from the gun model itself as well as the non-gun model chosen to act as that gun model's gunner; page 46 states, "When firing the guns, there must be a line of sight to the target from both the gun model and the crewman firing it (unless they are Barrage weapons, of course). Ranges are measured from the barrel on the gun model."

However, the Gun Emplacement rules on page 105 simply state, "One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting." There is no requirement that the gun emplacement be able to trace line of sight to the target. Speaking personally, I very well might suggest to my buddies that we house rule that in some way, but the way the rules are actually written is less like artillery and more like the current way that guardian weapons platforms work - the gun emplacement model doesn't shoot at all; the gunner does.

[entendre_entendre]

Then there's Nurglings... by definition they shouldn't even be able to reach the control panel you mentioned... except maybe if they build a pyramid out of themselves (wait... that might acutally look hilarious... maybe someone build that? bunch o' Nurglings on top of each other, with the one on top then holding the joystick... lulzy)...

I imagine this like having a bunch of [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug8hSqkFUXY]Gremlins[/url] operating a quad gun. This mental image is hilarious. Also, the current nurgling bases are tall enough to see over an ADL, the old ones I'm not so sure about, probably not as I remember them being fairly short. Oh GW... >.<

[Luke Licens]

So what you're telling me is that Wraithlords and Wraithguard can never draw line of sight to anything, as they don't have eyes?

*Goes to ground*

[Nabterayl]

You haven't been playing that wraith models can shoot all these years, have you?

[Tyrendian]

butbutbut... they have mind eyes... you know... like mind bullets only eyes...
the image of a wraithlord walking against (or rather through) a tree because it has no eyes is another hilarious one... or maybe one wraithguard tripping over a small stone and all the others o line behind it subsequently tripping over the first and each other... maaan i'm starting to like this thread^^

[JMichael]

So what you're telling me is that Wraithlords and Wraithguard can never draw line of sight to anything, as they don't have eyes?

*Goes to ground*

-> sneaking in to my buddy's house and filing off Biovore and Hive Tyrant eyes tonight! Muahahahah