Dark Angels flyers

[Delfin07]

so im reading the new DA book, and find it interesting that the air units arent really all that anti-airish? the only thing i can see is the one that is upgradable to have the 5 shot heavy bolter, and twinlinked heavy bolter alongside a strength 6 missle a turn, which adds up to be 9 strength 6 shots! but overall i think that with most flyers being armour 12, it may be hard to even kill another flyer with just glances? does anyone have experience, or something to help me to decided to take one or not? and overall, i find it ridiculous that a vendetta is only 130pts, compared to the DA flyers.... wtf.... lol. let me know if the flyers have worked out for anyone!

[Power Klawz]

When you compare the Nephilim jetfighter to the vendetta it loses every time. The vendetta is basically the best flyer in the game.

I don't think most flyers are armor 12 though, the average is probably 11 with a few 12s floating around, mainly space marine flyers. It can theoretically get lucky and pop anything with a good AP/penetrate roll, but the odds are against you. Even the vendetta with 3 twin linked lascannons won't reliably kill a heldrake in a single turn, two of them will struggle to accomplish that feat.

What you're looking at is probably flyer cost normalization that doesn't make any sense with some flyers being costed the way they are. I am pretty sure you're going to see a point jump in IG flyers as soon as they get around to updating the dex for sixth, but who knows how long that will be and in the interim I think we're going to see a lot of comparatively lackluster flyers in new codexes. If the rumors are right tau will be out soon, and if their new flyer(s) are costed similarly to the nephilim with similar drawbacks (ie: strength 6 missiles) then its a pretty safe bet that this is a trend that will continue.

All that being said I think the DA flyers can work if you make them work for you. The nephilim is still a pretty decent flying heavy weapons platform and the other one seems like it could at least be fun in conjunction with other army elements when used properly. They cost a bit much when compared to the vendetta, but when you look at how survivable and killy flyers are I don't think the cost is unjustified, only in light of undercosted options does it seem inappropriate.

The Vendetta was originally designed as a fast skimmer in a world where it couldn't move and fire all its guns. It is now a flyer that can clear the board in a turn if it wants to and fire 4 weapons at full effect, the cost should have changed dramatically but it didn't for whatever reason and so from now until it gets the eventual nerfbat it will be too amazing for its own good.

[Houghten]

5 shot heavy bolter, and twinlinked heavy bolter alongside a strength 6 missle a turn, which adds up to be 9 strength 6 shots!

The Avenger mega-bolter, plus up to two missiles per turn, is up to 7 strength 6 shots per turn, but the twin-linked heavy bolter is 3 strength 5 shots.

If you're trying to hurt Stormravens, keep the lascannon instead.

[Learn2Eel]

Yes, unfortunately if you do want fliers in a Dark Angels force the best best is allies. Though it can be understood why 5th Edition flyers would be so more cost-effective, it doesn't excuse the Heldrake being far and away the best of the 6th Edition codex flyers.

[Power Klawz]

The heldrake is pretty amazing, although lining up multiple vector strikes on a single target can be challenging. The hades autocannon combined with a vector strike will give you an almost 50% chance to down an armor 11 3 hull point flyer in a single round. Conversely I think the twin linked lascannon on the nephilim along with 2 missiles only has a 15% or so chance to do the same to the front armor of the heldrake.

The main limitations are the aforementioned necessity to actually run over your vector strike targets, which depending on your opponents movement and the turn his flyers arrive can be difficult if not impossible, along with the hard choice between a baleflamer and an autocannon. The autocannon is a pretty sweet piece of kit, but its not going to have the presence that the baleflamer does. Its your best bet for dedicated anti air, but in terms of how much carnage you can reap (and by extension how many points worth of dudes you can kill.) the baleflamer will almost invariably be your best best. You also suffer from an armor value of 10 on your backside, which makes your mechano-dragon susceptible to massed bolter fire and the like if its got its rear to the enemy. Do these limitations, along with a decreased BS warrant a 10 point price discount over the Nephilim?

I'm not sure to be honest.

If we look at best case scenario for both aircraft the heldrake runs away with the victory. If it can line up a vector strike and then blast away with its autocannon its got a very good chance of slagging the nephilim in one turn. But how often can you manage that best case scenario?

First of all, the odds of you taking the autocannon are probably lower than 50/50, because if you do that you can't spam flaming hate on MEQ, and you'll be lucky to knock out a single marine per turn with your cannon, as opposed to ALL THE MARINES.

Secondly, your opponent probably isn't going to make it easy to vector strike his flyer. If he shows up after your drake there's a good chance he'll drop in behind you, not only giving him a clear shot right up your "eye of terror" but also basically eliminating the vector strike threat. Even if the drake shows up after your opponents air support you're probably only going to get that first vector strike, which by itself only gives you an approximate 11% chance to down an armor 11 vehicle. That's worse than the single lascannon shot.

By contrast the nephilim can plug away basically all game after it arrives so long as you can keep your target in your forward arc, the range on the lascannon is basically the whole table length and the missiles are pretty decent too. So what you get is an overall slightly more fragile long ranged platform that will do its thing until you blast it out of the sky or cripple it, barring any really egregious errors in deployment or movement.

The Heldrake is a savage beast meant to go for the throat all at once, its daemonforge special rule only emphasizes this. When you line up that one perfect run with a vector strike and daemonforged autocannon blast its probably the killiest thing in the skies, for that one turn. the rest of the time its still amazing at what it does, but what it does is burn marines.

The Nephilim is a blue-collar workhorse that just keeps coming, it can reach out and touch you from almost anywhere on the board. It doesn't have the devastating punch of the drake for that one turn, but its the same beast every turn, from all angles. Its also has the ability to threaten armor 14, although just barely.

Is the heldrake a better unit? I don't think you'll find many arguments against this. Its propensity for massive damage all at once and its tenacity make it the obvious winner.

Is the Nephilim completely useless? I don't think so. It's a tool in your box if you play dark angels. It opens up some options and lets you threaten basically everyone on the table, if only a little bit. It's still cheaper than taking IG allies for the vendetta (you still have to buy an HQ and a troops choice after all, and while I'm not saying you can't make those choices work with your DA army it does shift your tactics to some degree having humans running around instead of power armored super mutants.) and if you opt for the mega bolter it does a bang up job slicing up horde armies, with its accuracy and rate of fire it can probably give the drake a run for its money (though I'm still sure the template dropping goodness will win out in the end.)

The dark talon is a different beast entirely, but I'm pretty sure given certain circumstances it can win games. It requires support and timing and an appropriate target of course, and since Deathstar units are no longer de rigueur it probably won't have as many chances to shine as it could, but still its got a purpose.

[Azrell]

You lost me at "hades autocannon". why would you take this on a helldrake.

[apahllo]

My DA flier is still unbuilt... Because I can't decide what I want.
The nephilim seems to be trying to do too much and isn't the flyer killer it was talked up to be. The super bolt gun is cool but I wish the TL bolter and lascannon were interchangeable instead for true air superiority.

The dark talon is what I'm favoring for hurricane bolters are not to be underestimated and this is the cheapest option for them in 40k(if I'm not mistaken). Plus it does support well and that's the biggest theme in the DA codex.

I'm going to try to proxy them both before committing.


And for the record, the hades auto cannon is not something to be discarded. I've seen 2 heldrakes dismantle flyer heavy armies with these weapons.

[DWest]

My DA flier is still unbuilt... Because I can't decide what I want.
The dark talon is what I'm favoring for hurricane bolters are not to be underestimated and this is the cheapest option for them in 40k(if I'm not mistaken).

The Ironclad Dreadnought can take a Hurricane Bolter in place of its' DCCW, and that clocks in at 135. I think your Dark Talon still holds the crown for "cheapest Hurricane you'd intentionally field".

And for the record, the hades auto cannon is not something to be discarded. I've seen 2 heldrakes dismantle flyer heavy armies with these weapons.

The Hades on the Heldrake is very good at getting rid of other fliers, but the Baleflamer is amazing, and gives the Heldrake a uniquely devastating ability, which is why I think a lot of people disparage the Hades option. Knowing how GW likes to push kits, I expect they might do something silly like give BA a "Storm Seraph" or somesuch as a flier with T-L Flamestorm cannon on it for ~130 points, and then the Hades AC will become a lot more popular.

[apahllo]

The Ironclad Dreadnought can take a Hurricane Bolter in place of its' DCCW, and that clocks in at 135. I think your Dark Talon still holds the crown for "cheapest Hurricane you'd intentionally field".


The Hades on the Heldrake is very good at getting rid of other fliers, but the Baleflamer is amazing, and gives the Heldrake a uniquely devastating ability, which is why I think a lot of people disparage the Hades option. Knowing how GW likes to push kits, I expect they might do something silly like give BA a "Storm Seraph" or somesuch as a flier with T-L Flamestorm cannon on it for ~130 points, and then the Hades AC will become a lot more popular.

Lololol, cheapest hurricane bolter you'd intentionally field. Lol, so true. I should have said pair.

And every model/upgrade has its place on the table top, it's up to the general to make use of it properly. Personally I'd take the flamer because it deep fries almost anything and torrent weapons are so much fun!