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  1. #21

    Default Competitive.

    I think its kinda funny that you said you thought Chaos Daemons were not a top tier army but given their performance at recent big tournaments I would say the hounds lists and FMC lists are absolutely top tier if not some of the strongest armies around (with a weakness to tau).

    In regards to Skarbrand I think hes one of the worst HQ choices you can take along with princes and Ku'Gath. Skarbrand boasts +1 attack and +1 Initiative over a regular bloodthirster. hes cheaper but doesnt have mobility or upgrades to survival. Fielding skarbrand is similar to fielding a giant target. Everyone knows that him reaching them means death so they shoot all their goodies at it. he dies end of story. the bloodthirster on the otherhand can fly in avoiding a huge amount of damage and charge on turn 2. there is maybe one or two hypothetical situations in which skarbrand can beat an opponent the bloodthrister cannot. None of these are realistic or common and there is no use building an army around the fact that if meph shows up you wanna beat him 1v1 on close combat and somehow get skarbrand to him alive.

    I agree with the rest of your assessments actually but I would add that pink horrors with their rerolls of 1 can go to ground behind ruins or something to camp objective and be unkillable. I would also like to add that the tzeentch powers while terrible on a good day can actually put out a lot of pain when used by fateweaver. The powerful Ap 1 beam can be used with another witchfire (since hes a MC idk if you can use a witchfire twice in the same turn) and destroy a squad of termies for example.

    Screamers for me have been effective at destroying a lot of targets like imperial guard blobs or firewarriors or snipers. Stuff that isnt durable but has a lot of shooty power. Like you said, screamers can reach these units incredibly fast and demolish them.

    Last thing. Bloodletters are the worst. An upcoming tournament had the most popular troop choice as horrors followed by ettes' and plague potatoes. Bloodletters will get destroyed by an unit with a gun and without being able to charge after deep striking and no transports it guarantees at least 2 turns of shooting into them. Unless you have huge blobs of them behind cover or get lucky all of these guys will die just like their bloodcrusher brothers before they can do anything useful


    Conclusion: This guide is well written and largely accurate although i would love to see updates. Daemons ARE a top tier highly competitive army in the form of flesh hound spam and tzeentch flying circus. Lets wait for an FAQ so we can use the burning chariots!

    edit: This was meant to reply to the tactica overview.

  2. #22

    Default

    I glanced over the topice since it feltlike reading a codex. I'll come back when I have the time to read it all.

    One thing I noticed is thanks to losing fearlesss Daemons can now gtg. Gtg is realy big for nurgle and Tzeentch. With Nurgle it's not a big thing since you are probaly sitting on an objective. With Tzeentch it's situational, +3 cover saves with re rolling ones is nice, but you now are snap shooting. You can still cast powers, but it depends if you really need to gtg. Or not.

    I can say I never lost with my daemons.

    What is a big thing about daemons is that you have acess to a ton of psychic buffs, gift buffs, and warp storm table buffs.

    It's the only army I know where you can run around with +2 invulnerable, fnp, it will not die, prescience, flame shield and other possible buffs on one unit and 3 to 4 more buffs on about half your army.

    I run 20 basic hounds and buff the crap with them. With all the army wide buffs you don't need a khorne herald or Karanack( 'aranack seems like a poor choice on hounds anyway.

    After playing 30+ games with daemons I have droped my khorne HQ in favor of the other 3. For example a Lord of Change with a 3 divination rolls is awesome. I was able to give him a +2 re rollable invulnerable save with invisibility and he was just unstopable. With prescience on him he was doing far better than what my bloodthirster was doing.

    The main problem I see is if you should go heralds are Mcs. With heralds you can get more army wide buff with all 3 mention before and loci.

    I also want to say a Tzeentch prince is awesome. It's the only way you can get biomacy.

    Also Fateweaver is really good. With his re rolling it has helped my hounds live longer, allow for +2 invul saves, and helped get true names to stay working. He can vestor strike and cast Tzeentch powers. The best use I had with him was vs guard. He was able to take out 4 chimeras at once. I vectored strike one chimera and used my beam attack to hit 3 differant chimeras in the rear and sides. It was only 200 point worth of tanks and a few dead guardsmen from the explosions, but how many units can possibly take out 4 tanks at once, funny thing is he can possibly take out more than 4.

  3. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jakl277 View Post
    I think its kinda funny that you said you thought Chaos Daemons were not a top tier army but given their performance at recent big tournaments I would say the hounds lists and FMC lists are absolutely top tier if not some of the strongest armies around (with a weakness to tau).

    In regards to Skarbrand I think hes one of the worst HQ choices you can take along with princes and Ku'Gath. Skarbrand boasts +1 attack and +1 Initiative over a regular bloodthirster. hes cheaper but doesnt have mobility or upgrades to survival. Fielding skarbrand is similar to fielding a giant target. Everyone knows that him reaching them means death so they shoot all their goodies at it. he dies end of story. the bloodthirster on the otherhand can fly in avoiding a huge amount of damage and charge on turn 2. there is maybe one or two hypothetical situations in which skarbrand can beat an opponent the bloodthrister cannot. None of these are realistic or common and there is no use building an army around the fact that if meph shows up you wanna beat him 1v1 on close combat and somehow get skarbrand to him alive.

    I agree with the rest of your assessments actually but I would add that pink horrors with their rerolls of 1 can go to ground behind ruins or something to camp objective and be unkillable. I would also like to add that the tzeentch powers while terrible on a good day can actually put out a lot of pain when used by fateweaver. The powerful Ap 1 beam can be used with another witchfire (since hes a MC idk if you can use a witchfire twice in the same turn) and destroy a squad of termies for example.

    Screamers for me have been effective at destroying a lot of targets like imperial guard blobs or firewarriors or snipers. Stuff that isnt durable but has a lot of shooty power. Like you said, screamers can reach these units incredibly fast and demolish them.

    Last thing. Bloodletters are the worst. An upcoming tournament had the most popular troop choice as horrors followed by ettes' and plague potatoes. Bloodletters will get destroyed by an unit with a gun and without being able to charge after deep striking and no transports it guarantees at least 2 turns of shooting into them. Unless you have huge blobs of them behind cover or get lucky all of these guys will die just like their bloodcrusher brothers before they can do anything useful


    Conclusion: This guide is well written and largely accurate although i would love to see updates. Daemons ARE a top tier highly competitive army in the form of flesh hound spam and tzeentch flying circus. Lets wait for an FAQ so we can use the burning chariots!

    edit: This was meant to reply to the tactica overview.
    I think I said that some of their lists were top tier, but that I thought the random elements would keep them in check from being too ridiculous. To be honest, I'm not surprised at all that Flesh Hounds and FMC spam are dominating tournaments, as the latter already was when 6th Edition came out - and it only got stronger - and the former was always going to take everyone by surprise in a shooting-oriented edition.

    You have to remember that these are aimed at everyone - from tournament gamers to less serious games - and that I am also a Tyranid player. In an army featuring the Grimoire of True Names and loads of psychic powers, keeping Skarbrand alive is actually quite easy if you play your cards right.

    I thought I mentioned that? My original assessment of Fateweaver was very positive, and as I play-tested the Daemon codex I became a lot more intrigued with the Tzeentch powers. There was something that caused me to look at Fateweaver a bit differently, but I can't remember what it was.

    I agree, I think Plaguebearers and Daemonettes are the strongest Troops choices personally, followed closely by Horrors. But really, it depends on the army list.
    Cheers for the feedback mate, yeah this came out when the codex was released, so it may have some inaccuracies based on recent findings and tournament results.

    Quote Originally Posted by chicop76 View Post
    I glanced over the topice since it feltlike reading a codex. I'll come back when I have the time to read it all.

    One thing I noticed is thanks to losing fearlesss Daemons can now gtg. Gtg is realy big for nurgle and Tzeentch. With Nurgle it's not a big thing since you are probaly sitting on an objective. With Tzeentch it's situational, +3 cover saves with re rolling ones is nice, but you now are snap shooting. You can still cast powers, but it depends if you really need to gtg. Or not.

    I can say I never lost with my daemons.

    What is a big thing about daemons is that you have acess to a ton of psychic buffs, gift buffs, and warp storm table buffs.

    It's the only army I know where you can run around with +2 invulnerable, fnp, it will not die, prescience, flame shield and other possible buffs on one unit and 3 to 4 more buffs on about half your army.

    I run 20 basic hounds and buff the crap with them. With all the army wide buffs you don't need a khorne herald or Karanack( 'aranack seems like a poor choice on hounds anyway.

    After playing 30+ games with daemons I have droped my khorne HQ in favor of the other 3. For example a Lord of Change with a 3 divination rolls is awesome. I was able to give him a +2 re rollable invulnerable save with invisibility and he was just unstopable. With prescience on him he was doing far better than what my bloodthirster was doing.

    The main problem I see is if you should go heralds are Mcs. With heralds you can get more army wide buff with all 3 mention before and loci.

    I also want to say a Tzeentch prince is awesome. It's the only way you can get biomacy.

    Also Fateweaver is really good. With his re rolling it has helped my hounds live longer, allow for +2 invul saves, and helped get true names to stay working. He can vestor strike and cast Tzeentch powers. The best use I had with him was vs guard. He was able to take out 4 chimeras at once. I vectored strike one chimera and used my beam attack to hit 3 differant chimeras in the rear and sides. It was only 200 point worth of tanks and a few dead guardsmen from the explosions, but how many units can possibly take out 4 tanks at once, funny thing is he can possibly take out more than 4.
    Yes, this is something I noticed. Go to Ground on Plaguebearers and Horrors in particular is really funny.

    I agree, it is also why a lot of competitive Tyranid army lists are featuring masses of Zoanthropes; they can spam psychic powers more than almost any other army.

    I think the Lord of Change is the strongest of the Greater Daemons personally, and it is funny that the build I started using as soon as the codex came out - Mastery Level three, lesser gift, two greater gifts - is now actually a recognized tournament build.

    From what I can tell, any Daemon Prince can take Biomancy - save a Daemon of Khorne obviously - unless I am missing something?

    I agree. When my original Tactica came out, I sung the praises of him. When it was about to be posted on the BoLS front-page, I edited it a bit so as not to come off as "over-positive" and be more 'balanced', but my opinion of him still remains the same.
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  4. #24

    Default

    Any prince, but khorne is right. I say Tzeentch since more than likely you will be running Fateweaver and Loc anyways. That being said I notice a slaanech prince can possibly dish out 2d6 strength 9 shots. Not op.

    Nids can cast more, but they do not have the ability to use all the spell trees. Also daemons have 3 more trees on top of the 5 you can pick from general. I play both and Tyranids really come out strong with biomancy and telepathy. Daemons however usually have divination, telepathy, or biomancy. I gave up on the slaanech powers for telepathy.

    I think the strongest troop over all is the daemonette not buffed. Even while buff the girls are rather nasty. The rap banner is great and with herald they can re roll all the time. I found daemonettes to be very useful. However I seen plague bearers used and have to say without a herald they suck against some armies. If you can ignore cover saves they are not hard to kill. The problem with them they are not good in combat. The herald makes the plaguebearers with the ap 2 atacks and feel no pain.

    Tzeentch horrors suffer from the same issue that they are not really good unless you have a hearld with them. However I find that portal heralds work really well.

    I was doing greater, greater, lesser which is really good for a melee daemon. However going exhauled greater is better.

    The reason I say this is these reasons:
    1. Can get a lesser, greater, and exhaulted. Free lesser is awesome
    2. Riftbringer: everytime I get tat it's game over. If it's on a good unit that can rake in kills it's very good.
    3. Can get rage and rampage, it's good for extra 5 attacks
    4. Soul eater: possible 10 wounds is really good. That is a possible 2 wounds a turn, it will not die and life leech with this is really really good.
    5. Not dying is not bad, although if you don't die much it's ok
    6. The ranged atack sucks

    4 out of 6 of the exhaulted or really good.

    If you get a power you don't like you can get

    1. A sword that adds +1 str, and d3 attacks, int, and ws it's really good on the Los
    Which means a possible 3 with sword, 1 on a charge, 1 if you get two special weapons, and 3 more with biomancy. That's a possible 8 extra attacks for a total of 13 attacks with prescience. Heck 14 is max possible with Tzeentch Prince.

    2. True names which is a must

    3. Portalglyph. This is situational and not needed if you already have riftbringer. However it wouldn't be a bad ideal to have both in some cases.

  5. #25

    Default

    Hmm new tactica or is it okay to discuss the uses and cons of using daemons as an allied detachment?

  6. #26

    Default

    I would say this is the place to discuss using Daemons as Allies, as that's a possible tactic to take for them. For example, if you have Abaddon in the Primary as the Warlord, then your Daemons would get Preferred Enemy Space Marines within 12" of him (since they're Battle Bros), which can be pretty good!
    That would help mitigate the lack of Heralds and Locus-es in an Allied Detachment of Daemons.

    That said, the biggest con of Daemons as Allies is the sacrifice of multiple Heralds, which I feel is the biggest loss. But for a nice all Chaos Khorne list for example, you can still get a load of Khorne in a Daemonic Allies party, with a Thirster, Letters, Hounds, Skull Cannon or Prince or Soul Grinder. Pretty solid. Or Tzeentch might be even better, with a LOC, Horrors, Screamers, and either Soul Grinder or DP. Helps the fluffy CSM lists a bunch.

  7. #27

    Default

    I'm mainly thinking about the troop options and how the compliment a list nicely. I know I've been picking up bloodletters and plaguebearers off ebay and my local LGS left and right. I just wonder when using khorne how much of an uphill battle it will be for my world eaters. Would those points be better off getting more csm or would a mono khorne list be viable?

  8. #28

    Default

    Mono Khorne Daemons armies work just fine, you will have to be prepared for the lack of options you have when there are no psychic powers in the army though. The best Daemon Princes tend to be those that can take psychic powers, mono-Khorne has access to perhaps the scariest melee unit at a tournament level right now - Flesh Hounds. A big unit of those with an added Herald of Khorne on a Juggernaught with both the Exalted Locus and an Exalted Gift (mostly for the Grimoire) will spoil almost anyone's day; heck, even Tau can't deal with that many Toughness 4, 2 wound models when they charge on the first or second turn and have a probable 3+ invulnerable save!

    Bloodthirsters are generally considered to be the weakest of the Greater Daemon choices as, outside of gifts, they don't offer the same game-changing effects that the others can bring through psychic powers. However, that doesn't make them at all a mediocre or bad choice; they will still wreck nearly anything in combat with contemptuous ease. The best part is that they don't need to be kitted out like the others do; you can get away with leaving them bare, though I would recommend taking two greater gifts on them as a matter of principle. Big scary daemons love Greater Gifts. Getting your Troops into combat can be a pain, but that is why we have Instruments, Icons and fast moving units.
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  9. #29

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    I think there are a couple of reasons why tzeench is not that good of troops has been left out.

    1. They give out FNP. That can be super annoying if you biff it.
    2. Your opponent has a 6+ save to ignore your entire attack. That is terrible. Especially if you are facing enemy psykers that are higher level than you or any anti psyker power

    I've really got to say that plague potatoes and nettes are the only real troop choices to bring. Multiple 10-14 man potato squads backed by 2 bloodthirsters and 3 daemon princes is no laughing matter. If you go first, place the fmc's down, deepstrike the potatoes o to objectives. If you go second, either do the same if you can hide your princes til they can fly or deepstrike them as they come in cou ted as swooping. Place potatoes on objectives as 5 fmc's ruin your opponents day.

    I have been toying with daemons for a while and the aforementioned list is my ideal but I dislike proxying my armies have led me to play 2 GUOs 2 max nettes 2-3 potato squads and 3 flying princes. Have yet to lose yet with these guys barring Tau. My warlord has been killed twice. I get linebreaker every game. This leads to never drawing and I have 5 units charge turn two.

    There's a lot to really say but I am at work and wanted to throw in my two cents but daemons are the toughest army to beat barring Tau which alis still doable if all your charges go off at the same time so they can't quadrouple up on overwatch.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by nenya97 View Post
    I think there are a couple of reasons why tzeench is not that good of troops has been left out.

    1. They give out FNP. That can be super annoying if you biff it.
    2. Your opponent has a 6+ save to ignore your entire attack. That is terrible. Especially if you are facing enemy psykers that are higher level than you or any anti psyker power

    I've really got to say that plague potatoes and nettes are the only real troop choices to bring. Multiple 10-14 man potato squads backed by 2 bloodthirsters and 3 daemon princes is no laughing matter. If you go first, place the fmc's down, deepstrike the potatoes o to objectives. If you go second, either do the same if you can hide your princes til they can fly or deepstrike them as they come in cou ted as swooping. Place potatoes on objectives as 5 fmc's ruin your opponents day.

    I have been toying with daemons for a while and the aforementioned list is my ideal but I dislike proxying my armies have led me to play 2 GUOs 2 max nettes 2-3 potato squads and 3 flying princes. Have yet to lose yet with these guys barring Tau. My warlord has been killed twice. I get linebreaker every game. This leads to never drawing and I have 5 units charge turn two.

    There's a lot to really say but I am at work and wanted to throw in my two cents but daemons are the toughest army to beat barring Tau which alis still doable if all your charges go off at the same time so they can't quadrouple up on overwatch.
    have you used horrors? honestly the fnp issue only realy comes into play vs plague marines for example. However 15 horrors with a hearld can do serious damage to most units.

    Also if you are running enough of them deny the witch is also a non issue.

    Most people see the possibility of giving fnp a good reason not to use them, so far in one ame it has been an issue. if i went mono tzeentch it would had been differant and if i ran tzeentch heralds i would had done much better. out of playing several games with them and watching others it's a seroius threrat and actually good. Also keep in mind heralds can shoot reward powers and also you kave a banner to provide extra shooting.

 

 
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