GW store opening in San Diego...how will this effect LGS?

[Caitsidhe]

Wow there is some paranoia running wild in this thread, Caitsidhe, you might need to drink less coffee or something.

I don't drink coffee. At the moment I'm not even drinking sodas with caffeine. Be that as it may, I take no offense if you want to label me paranoid or nuts. My assessment is based simply on the facts with a particular emphasis on recent events. I would like to point out that paranoia requires an element of fear. I don't fear Games Workshop, nor do I think they are "out to get me." I have no ax to grind in the matter at all. My Games Workshop product comes from barter, prize support, and/or Ebay.

As for GW moving to an area with a lot of FLGS, well, as you think, GW is great at getting younger people into the hobby, FLGS aren't, they're generally not that F and can be rather intimidating for younger people and those inexperinced in the hobby, they do however have thier uses, they generally have more gaming space and have new games and models for you to try out.

I never said I think Games Workshop are good at getting younger people into the hobby. I don't think younger people in the U.S. on the whole are interest in the hobby at all. Games Workshop has been around for quite some time and the ratio of young children involved in the hobby has always been a near flat line. Children, in general, don't go to boutique stores. They go to TOY stores, i.e. gaming shops with lots of variety. Young people who end up in a Games Workshop store do so only if their parents take them there. That just isn't the dominant culture over here. However, if I were to give your argument any credence, I would have to see a Games Workshop store setup to be inviting/appealing to the younger set. It isn't. They tend, in general, to be setup like the little stores that sell high end stereo equipment for your car.

We should always apply critical thinking skills. That isn't paranoia; it is commonsense. If recruitment was their actual goal, Games Workshop stores would be appearing in cities that lack a strong war-gaming presence but that have the right demographics (i.e. potential) for it. If they were aimed at the younger set, they would be appearing in locations were younger children are likely to be "walk ins" and be setup for people to spend more time in them. My point is that if "recruitment" is the goal for these stores and it is just accepted that they are going to be a "loss leader," they are being badly mismanaged for that purpose.

I don't believe they are intended as "loss leaders," or is "recruitment" more important than profit. I think those are the excuses given by people in the company trying to cover their own butts for doing a bad job and by those people who are apologists who simply don't want to call Games Workshop on really poor judgement. I think they place their stores in cities that already have large, healthy gaming populations because they want that business and then were puzzled when they didn't get it. I think their stores ended up financial losers because of bad management and now Games Workshop is changing tactics to try and salvage some timber from the deadfall. I think the people now in charge have a very concise, ambitious (if deluded) plan to try and dramatically alter how their product is placed on the market, consolidating it with themselves as the sole vendor and distribution network.

[gcsmith]

You realize if they wanted to be the sole trader, the easiest thing to do would be to stop third party sales.... "But they earn most money through third party!!!" Exactly, so they don;t want to end third party.

[eldargal]

GW store opens
Horse eats its young
Two headed cat is born
Sheep start fornicating with goats
The earth cracks
Brimstone falls from the sky
FLGS closes
The world is rent asunder and humaity spills screaming and mewling into a cold, deathless void.

Or:

GW store opens, does well.
FLGS also do well offering things GW don't like a variety of companies products and more gaming space.

[Caitsidhe]

You realize if they wanted to be the sole trader, the easiest thing to do would be to stop third party sales.... "But they earn most money through third party!!!" Exactly, so they don;t want to end third party.

Not yet... that will come soon enough though. That is the other shoe to drop. They are taking the first steps now by trying to eliminate all internet sales besides their own. This is rather huge since most stores today rely also on the internet. Very few "brick and mortar" stores don't make use of it. Telling an LGS you can't sell anything except over the counter is a huge change and it affects a rather large number of people, not just businesses that are entirely online. The other telling change is how much stock must be kept on the shelves and of "what kind." If you wean the LGS to a minimum of stock that largely must represent new product, you are already starting to setup a situation even in the brick and mortar stores where people must go to Games Workshop for a certain percentage of models.

It is also important to note that the sales Contracts which Games Workshop setups with third party vendors prohibits them from selling below a certain price but it is NOT reciprocal. This means nothing prevents Games Workshop from doing discounts if/when it pleases at some future date. In short, the perfect means to start pulling people into their own stores exists. This dovetails nicely into the fact that they are only building or maintaining stores that already have a healthy population of gamers (and didn't actually need a Games Workshop store).

I agree with you that they currently do earn most of their money (at least in the United States) through third party stores. This is because they lacked a distribution network. What we are seeing is the fact that Games Workshop has finally clued in on the fact that modern gamers use the internet a great deal and that there is, in fact, a distribution network they can subsume. More to the point, Games Workshop has now been selling to LGS in the United States long enough to have decent numbers and research of when/where to place. They know which stores, if no longer able to carry their product, would create overflow to their own shops. Games Workshop sells to third party vendors wholesale. The public is used to paying a certain price. If Games Workshop starts to sell direct as the vendor, it doubles it profit because it doesn't sell to itself wholesale. If they can manage the trick of rerouting the customer base (not easy) it is nothing but win for them.

[Wolfshade]

GW store opens
Horse eats its young
Two headed cat is born
Sheep start fornicating with goats
The earth cracks
Brimstone falls from the sky
FLGS closes
The world is rent asunder and humaity spills screaming and mewling into a cold, deathless void.

And that is why Mark Wells resigned.

[Psychosplodge]

to prepare?

[Mr Mystery]

Not yet... that will come soon enough though. That is the other shoe to drop. They are taking the first steps now by trying to eliminate all internet sales besides their own. This is rather huge since most stores today rely also on the internet. Very few "brick and mortar" stores don't make use of it. Telling an LGS you can't sell anything except over the counter is a huge change and it affects a rather large number of people, not just businesses that are entirely online. The other telling change is how much stock must be kept on the shelves and of "what kind." If you wean the LGS to a minimum of stock that largely must represent new product, you are already starting to setup a situation even in the brick and mortar stores where people must go to Games Workshop for a certain percentage of models.

It is also important to note that the sales Contracts which Games Workshop setups with third party vendors prohibits them from selling below a certain price but it is NOT reciprocal. This means nothing prevents Games Workshop from doing discounts if/when it pleases at some future date. In short, the perfect means to start pulling people into their own stores exists. This dovetails nicely into the fact that they are only building or maintaining stores that already have a healthy population of gamers (and didn't actually need a Games Workshop store).

I agree with you that they currently do earn most of their money (at least in the United States) through third party stores. This is because they lacked a distribution network. What we are seeing is the fact that Games Workshop has finally clued in on the fact that modern gamers use the internet a great deal and that there is, in fact, a distribution network they can subsume. More to the point, Games Workshop has now been selling to LGS in the United States long enough to have decent numbers and research of when/where to place. They know which stores, if no longer able to carry their product, would create overflow to their own shops. Games Workshop sells to third party vendors wholesale. The public is used to paying a certain price. If Games Workshop starts to sell direct as the vendor, it doubles it profit because it doesn't sell to itself wholesale. If they can manage the trick of rerouting the customer base (not easy) it is nothing but win for them.

Dude. Normally I kind of get your drift, even though I rarely agree...but you really are coming across paranoid on this one....

And remember, despite what those against GW would like to claim, they remain the largest hobby wargames company in the world, the most successful hobby wargames company in the world, are turning a decent little profit, and are in sales growth. Be very careful who is being labelled the apologists here...because you know, only one side has actual facts on it's side....

[Caitsidhe]

Dude. Normally I kind of get your drift, even though I rarely agree...but you really are coming across paranoid on this one....

As I said before, I realize my observations may well turn out wrong and I'll look foolish. I'll be the first to man up and say, "don't I feel silly," if this comes to pass. I don't make my commentary based on what I think will make me sound sage and brimming with wisdom, popular, or cool. I make my commentary based on the evidence I see; call them educated guesses if you will. Call it paranoia if you like that better (although this would be an inaccurate use of the term).

And remember, despite what those against GW would like to claim, they remain the largest hobby wargames company in the world, the most successful hobby wargames company in the world, are turning a decent little profit, and are in sales growth. Be very careful who is being labelled the apologists here...because you know, only one side has actual facts on it's side....

I would like to parse your words here. I'm not "against" Games Workshop. This indicates an odd bias in your statement, as if this is an "us versus them" situation. It is the very thing which makes you sound, quite often, like an apologist. You qualify anyone who says Games Workshop did something bad as being "against" them. This is a very Bush-Cheney way of qualifying the world, i.e. "you are either for us or against us." In regards to the facts, they aren't on anyone's side. Facts are just information and people like to spin information to claim that is is "on their side." Facts don't have sides. They don't care. Facts are facts. An economic analysis of the quarterly reports of Games Workshop over the last couple of years shows them in the black, but much of this is due to offsets (such as closing shops, reducing hours, increasing prices, and so on). It isn't due to real growth which is problematic for a company, particularly one which has been laying out lots of money on things like the rights to do The Hobbit. The health of a company is better tracked by eliminating any profit that is created by manipulating the books and assets. If you do these things you see a predictable lack of growth and in some cases a decline brought on by increased competition.

In short, Games Workshop is in the black for now, but in the long run there are only so many shops she can close, so many corners she can cut. Games Workshop must actually make inroads and increase profit. There are many ways to do this, but one of them... an ambitious, risky one is to go almost entirely to direct marketing. They are, after all, the owner of the IP, the producer of the product and can double profit if they don't have to use a middle man. I think it is a poor choice based on the growth of competition, but if they pull it off it will be one of the great business coups in history. I'm not anti-Games Workshop. I'm pro-consumer (me). Do I think it will be good for the Games Workshop consumer if they pull it off? No.

[Mr Mystery]

And again...they have increased sales volumes, and well beyond their price raises.

Company is doing just fine, and in one of the worst financial downturns in living memory. UK high street has been shredded, closures everywhere. GW? Hardly batted an eyelid, and made more money.

[OrksOrksOrks]

I don't drink coffee. At the moment I'm not even drinking sodas with caffeine. Be that as it may, I take no offense if you want to label me paranoid or nuts. My assessment is based simply on the facts with a particular emphasis on recent events. I would like to point out that paranoia requires an element of fear. I don't fear Games Workshop, nor do I think they are "out to get me." I have no ax to grind in the matter at all. My Games Workshop product comes from barter, prize support, and/or Ebay.



I never said I think Games Workshop are good at getting younger people into the hobby. I don't think younger people in the U.S. on the whole are interest in the hobby at all. Games Workshop has been around for quite some time and the ratio of young children involved in the hobby has always been a near flat line. Children, in general, don't go to boutique stores. They go to TOY stores, i.e. gaming shops with lots of variety. Young people who end up in a Games Workshop store do so only if their parents take them there. That just isn't the dominant culture over here. However, if I were to give your argument any credence, I would have to see a Games Workshop store setup to be inviting/appealing to the younger set. It isn't. They tend, in general, to be setup like the little stores that sell high end stereo equipment for your car.

We should always apply critical thinking skills. That isn't paranoia; it is commonsense. If recruitment was their actual goal, Games Workshop stores would be appearing in cities that lack a strong war-gaming presence but that have the right demographics (i.e. potential) for it. If they were aimed at the younger set, they would be appearing in locations were younger children are likely to be "walk ins" and be setup for people to spend more time in them. My point is that if "recruitment" is the goal for these stores and it is just accepted that they are going to be a "loss leader," they are being badly mismanaged for that purpose.

I don't believe they are intended as "loss leaders," or is "recruitment" more important than profit. I think those are the excuses given by people in the company trying to cover their own butts for doing a bad job and by those people who are apologists who simply don't want to call Games Workshop on really poor judgement. I think they place their stores in cities that already have large, healthy gaming populations because they want that business and then were puzzled when they didn't get it. I think their stores ended up financial losers because of bad management and now Games Workshop is changing tactics to try and salvage some timber from the deadfall. I think the people now in charge have a very concise, ambitious (if deluded) plan to try and dramatically alter how their product is placed on the market, consolidating it with themselves as the sole vendor and distribution network.

Yeah, you really proved you're not paranoid and only apply critical thinking.


Anyway, real talk, kids like Warhams, they love going in the shops and the staff in a GW will not only engage with them, they'll let them play and teach them how to paint, thats what gets them. Yes, wargaming is a niche, but there are reasons that GW are the major player within that niche, they get people young, like cigarette companies used to! Its how they do business and its how they've always done business, I don't know what is possesing you to ignore that and paint them as evil or stupid?

You obviously don't understand this business, a recruitment store isn't in any way a loss leader, GW say that most hobbyists spend more in the first 3 years than they will in the rest of the hobby, thats what they want, the kids who are going to come in, get hooked and spent all their pocket money, christmas and birthday money on Spess Marhines.

And you've never seen a GW shop set up to appeal to kids? Have you been in a GW??

Its covered in cool warriors in massive armour and monsters and aliens with guns that are arms, and swords that are also chainsaws. Its exactly what gets a 14 year old boy excited. Thats not a co-incidence.

They go to areas with established presence because those are the places that show they can support the hobby, if an area is too small, not enough product will be sold to make a profit.

Basically, you're not nearly as smart and superior as you like to think you are and you're coming across like a weirdo about this.