Finally moving out of 5th Ed. - Need help with 6th Ed. Chaos Demons

[eagleboy7259]

I've been playing Chaos Demons since the start of 5th Edition. I used to run a Tzeentch Heavy Fatecrusher build. My desire to play demons waned during the release of the 6th Edition, when it seemed like the Skyshield Landing Pad was compulsory choice for demons. The old book didn't exactly seem to match the new rules (core Warlord traits / no flyers), and my frustration with 6th Ed. lead me to quit. I bought some Warmachine, tried X-Wing but I couldn't get into anything else, so I finally broke down and bought the current Demons book.

I'm going to openly admit, I'm not entirely sure how all the new demon rules interact with the 6th Ed rulebook. I'm always caught thinking in terms of 5th Ed. when playing. What I am confident about is that my old builds won't work, and that demons went from being a small elite force to being semi-horde. Here's what my common old list used to look like:

1500pts
Fateweaver -333pts
3x Bloodcrushers - 120pts
3x Flamers - 105pts
3x Flamers - 105pts
8x Horrors w/ Bolt - 146pts
8x Horrors w/ Bolt & Changling - 151pts
5x Plaguebearers - 75pts
Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm - 160pts
Soul Grinder w/ Phelgm - 160pts
Demon Prince w/ MoT, Bolt, Gaze - 160pts

Am I wrong in thinking that 90% of the units in this list are now terrible under the new rulebook? Or what are the new ways of using them? Do the old ideas of filling out the list for heavy hitters (MC's and Soul Grinders) still work? Who is the best partner for a Dual Force Org. at higher points? Do I need to get a flyer in there or does Soul Grinder Skyfire cover that base? Should demons only be used as allies to avoid rolling on the Warp Storm Table? Or should you Dual Force Org Demons with Demons to get 3x Greater Demons? What are the "must-take" units for demons in 6th Ed., and what are the common demon builds?

I really appreciate any help that you guys can give. My current model list is below.

Fateweaver
Bloodthirster
Great Unclean One
Keeper of Secrets
Karanak
Changling / Tzeentch Herald
2x Demon Princes (1 w/ wings & 1 w/o wings)
7x Bloodcrushers
6x Flamers
10x Plaguebearers
10x Demonettes
10x Bloodletters
10x Flesh Hounds
15x Horrors
2x Soul Grinders

[LukePreston]

Definites from your list are:
Bloodthirster (2 greater gifts)
Great Unclean One (Lvl 3 Biomancy psyker, 2 greater gifts)
2 Soul Grinders (Nurgle, Phlegm)
A daemon prince may be useful but obviously it'll have to be Khorne or Nurgle.
I'd think about using all of the troops, but the unit sizes might need to increase depending kn how you plan to use them.
I've had a few games with the new daemons with mixed success. Like yourself, I played a lot with the old book. The new one is just so different but it's nice to have to figure out a new way to play with, what I think, is one of the most fun armies in the game.

[eagleboy7259]

The big dogs seem to have gotten a bit better -especially since flying monstrous creatures can start on the table and don't need waste a turn getting shot at when they deepstrike. I can't make heads or tails of the Daemon Princes - they seem to have gotten worse: needing to become pyskers to take shooting attacks, being bumped up in points, and having less protection (no MoT 4++ or 3+) - especially when competing in the same slot against cheaper Soul Grinders (skyfire harvester is NICE) and Greater Demons.

I honestly cannot make heads or tails about the demon troops. They all seem terrible. None of them are truly survivable or can dish out much damage. Plaguebearer shrouding is only good if there's cover - and having 1 save vs T5 and the 5+ / 4+ FNP hardly justifies a drop of only 6 points. It almost seems like I should Min-Max them (take 2@10 strong) and then fill in with allied CSM's

[Lord Krungharr]

I've had mixed results with Soul Grinders, but a Deepstriking battle cannon is certainly a good shock unit. I would almost recommend Slaanesh on the Grinders though for Fleet, as they're tough to keep obscured enough, better to just Grimoire them if needed.

GUO all tricked out is definitely a worthwhile points investment but can really only guard the backfield, and he should be on the table to start because of his Blessings and Maledictions potential.

The Thirster always kills stuff, just don't be too impatient with him, as he can still get shot up like anything else. The Lord of Change is also really good, but probably more worthwhile with more shooty Chaos Marine Allies (I'm thinking Obliterators with assault cannons versus enemy flyers perhaps?)

I agree, the Troops pretty much suck. The best way I've found is to have 1 squad behind an Aegis Line, manning a gun usually (Nurgle Herald with 'Bearers or even Bloodletters, BS5 is nice!), and deepstrike all the rest whereever you need them. For this the Plaguers kinda suck as they can't run to spread out to avoid blasts, but the Daemonettes run quite fast and can fight back if assaulted. Horrors are hit or miss, literally, and I don't like them so much anymore. They suck so bad in combat, die so easily, just my least favorite right now. And my Tzeentch Herald has died due to barrage-sniping two games in a row vs. different opponents, very very sad news there, so maybe deepstriking the Horrors with the Herald would actually be the way to go....at least they could get the 4D6 S6 shots off for a turn (unless they get DTWd).

The Flesh Hounds are a terrific tarpit unit now, and can handle most normal infantry squads. Karanak would be excellent to run with the Bloodcrushers, as that would give them scout and Rage. But beware S8 weapons on the Bloodcrushers, they are pricey and sad to lose on an alpha strike blast session. I would recommend attempting to Grimoire them, and if you get the GUO with Endurance do that too. They will need it at T4 (such a nerf!). I favor calling a couple Bloodcrushers Khorne Heralds, give them some Rewards and run them with the Hounds and Karanak, for all the bonus Scout and Locus crap. That's a potent unit able to absorb more fire and still hit real hard usually.

[LukePreston]

The troops are a strange one. Appreciated they're not anywhere near as good as the last book (except daemonettes) but they're cheaper - especially horrors which are half the points.
I run 16 bloodletters and if you can get 6 or 7 into a tactical squad they'll smash it with WS5 S5 power weapons.
Plaguebearers, yes they're T4 with no FNP but touch of rust is a useful rule, poison 4+ is still cool and they're still the most survivable of the troops, and 6 points cheaper.
Horrors are a strange one.... I've found that their main weakness is that guy who ALWAYS rolls 6 for deny the witch, then you've basically got a whole squad of lads doing nothing. But, pay 5pts for a champion and all of a sudden the shots you fire are precision shots on 6's. Bouce them from cover to cover using them as a bit of firepower to soften up targets for bloodletters and daemonettes. Horrors are also half the points now.
Daemonettes are my favourite troops choice. Yes they're very prone to all types of fire. But they've got better with WS5 and still put out a lot of attacks. They get +3 to run moves and are 3pts cheaper.
End of the day, daemons are a horde army now and need to be played as such. I run 16 bloodletters, 14 plaguebearers, 18 horrors and 18 daemonettes.

[eagleboy7259]

But are Demons really now a Horde Army? It's definately no tyranids, or orks, or guard. Having troops that are in the 9/10pt range, don't move especially well or have incredible access to survivability buffs or transports, isn't really a recipe for success. Deep-striking units that can't shoot doesn't really make a whole ton of sense either.

[LukePreston]

I should have put that they can be played as a horde army I think
There's pro's and con's for loading up on troops or playing minimal.
After the games I've played I'm happy with the 60ish that I put down at 2k.
But I guess it depends on your own play style.

[Lord Krungharr]

I hadn't thought about the Precision Shots from a 5 point Iridescent Horror. That's a good idea, especially for 5 points. Love running in the magic numbers too, seems like GW should've done something cool with that, they keep missing chances to meld fluff with game continually (like Chaos Marines, Bikes, Raptors, and Terminators with Mark of Slaanesh accessing sonic weaponry for example, but I digress...)

I think the Daemonic Horde army could be fairly decent, but not necessarily with all Troops. The Fast Attacks and Elites are really good now, so a full squad of Flesh Hounds, Seekers, Screamers, and Fiends (Beasts of Nurgle are awesome but super expensive though) running with Heralds can pack a serious whallop, and thus diverting fire from the Troops.

After a recent butt-kicking I received from Tyranids I muttered that Daemons suck now. Well, I don't want to think that, and perhaps we just haven't found the right combinations and/or Allied situations to make them shine competitively yet. There's certainly no 1 or 2 auto-win units anymore like the old Flamers and old Screamers. But I can sense somehow they can win tough games vs. the likes of leaf-blower IG and GKs, and even Nids against whom I've not won a game in 6 or 7 years. The speed of the new Daemons will be key, but also the synergy of all the whacky effects they can have too, which have not been fully explored.

I think having 16 Bloodletters, 18 Daemonettes, 18 Horrors, and 14 Plaguebearers, then 16 Hounds with Jugger Herald with Locus of Wrath Greater Reward and Lesser Reward, 9 Fiends with Steed Herald and some upgrades, 18 Seekers, 9 Screamers with a Disc Herald Mastery 2 Greater Etherblade Locus of Transmogrifcation, would all run about 1999 points give or take a few. That would be super fast, terrible vs a flyer spam list, not great vs all Land Raiders either, but very fun and effective vs many many various armies.

I really hope they FAQ that the Masque can be in the Herald slot. That would help a bunch!

[eagleboy7259]

I think that's one of the main problems with the book right now is the lack of death-star units that don't occupy the HQ slot. The carry-overs from the old book all got nurfed in some way, even if they improved in others (like Bloodcrushers going to cavalry and getting bumped to 3 wounds but losing the 3+ save, eternal warrior, AP 2 power weapons, and T5). I mean that happened to literally every unit - Screamers, Flamers, Seekers, Fiends, Beasts of Nurgle. It used to be you could no wrong as long as you fleshed out the Elites slot - now they desperately need to be supported by Heralds so you end up paying way more to get the same effect as the last codex.

[eagleboy7259]

Karanak leading 5 Bloodcrushers
- I picked this unit to be a death-star. The whole unit is beast & cavalry, so it moves 12", but its also Fleet so it re-rolls Run and Charge distances. Karanak being cavalry confers Move Through Cover to the whole squad. Likewise Karanak confers Scout on the whole unit so they receive a 6" free move but can also Outflank depending on the situation. Karanak also has the Locus that confers Rage to the whole unit, so on the turn they charge, they will make 5 Hammer of Wrath attacks, plus all the other attacks at +1S with a +2A charge bonus. It will take 19 Wounds to bring them down.

Herald of Khorne w/ Juggernaught & Locus of Wrath leading 10 Flesh Hounds
- This is the support unit for the Karanak death-star. It has all the movement bonuses of the unit above. The Locus of Wrath confers re-rolls on the charge to give the Flesh Hounds some more staying power. It will take 23 Wounds to bring them down.

Herald of Nurgle w/ Locus of Fecundity leading 14 Plaguebearers
- This unit has the Herald in there to give it FNP (5+) and make it a tar-pit that can sit on objectives. I'm unsure as to whether or not I should better equip the Herald for some ranged power, or to drop some plaugebearers to squeeze in a Plague Banner for if they get charged.

Herald of Tzeentch w/ Level 2 Mastery & Locus of Conjunction leading 15 Pink Horrors
- I put the Tzeentch Herald in here to crank up the shooting power of this unit. They should drop 2x 2D6 Flickering Fire shots per turn, which hit at strength 6 due to the Locus of Conjunction. Hopefully the Herald rolls well on the Divination table, although you really can't go wrong with that whole field: re-rolls to hit, counter-attack & Overwatch at unit BS, enemy re-rolls successful saving throws, ignore cover, etc. This unit I was most unsure about, as I could drop bodies and powers off the Tzeentch Herald and they would still produce the same number of shots.

Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm & Mark of Tzeentch

Lord of Change w/ Level 3 Master & 2x Greater Rewards

-I'm really unsure about rounding out the list with these two. One Soul Grinder is a pretty big and unsurvivable target. Likewise I went with the LoC to add to the survivability of the Flesh Hounds & Bloodcrushers, but I almost think I'd be better off with a different Greater Demon. I'm also looking at a way to get a second Soul Grinder into this list while keeping all the boons the Heralds give to their various units

Overall there are 48 bodies in here, so it is only a mid-sized army.