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  1. #1
    Veteran-Sergeant
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    Default Morality of the Net List

    Hey guys, after an experience I had last week, I have some thoughts to share.

    To give a brief introduction, last weekend I was at Brighton Warlords tournament (Great Time, Highly Recommend!) with my tyranids. my first 4 games were not that great, the first 3 being draws and the 4th with my losing horribly. All against Gun Lines, as you can imagine, my gribblies did not fair amazingly well. In my 5th game, I was placed up against a young chap who was a great guy to play. However his list did not pose many challenges for me, with the main body of his force being 3 tactical squads and an assault squad.

    After around half an hour of playing, the result was clear and we was the first pair to finish that round as I annihilated him. Don't get me wrong, I am not the most amazing player by any means. My list is not good at that many things, but beating standard tactical marines is one thing it really excels at, so from my point of view, it was a good match up. In our post game discussion, he asked me if I had found the list I used off the internet. I casually said no and carried on as usual but since then it has been bugging me. For reference, here is my list.

    Hive Tyrant - Wings, 2x Twin Devourers - 260

    Doom Of Malan'tai - Mycetic Spore - 130

    Tervigon - Stinger Salvo, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught - 210
    10 Termagaunts - 50

    Tervigon - Stinger Salvo, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught - 210
    10 Termagaunts - 50

    Trygon - Toxin Sacs - 210

    2 Carnifexes, 2x Twin Devourers - 380

    I would call it mildly competitive, but nothing more than that. It may be my own personal bias, but I have always found that the term Net-List has always been used in a derogatory sense. In that, a good player would not need to go online to find out how to build his army, he would be able to work it out for himself. Only less able players would feel the need to go and copy another persons ideas.

    So having just won my game, being asked if I had simply taken my list from somebody else I was slightly offended. The theory being that my gaming ability does not quite match up to my list. Now yes that is quite the cynical thought of me, he could of (and probably meant) that my list was good in general. But he did say that he had seen very similar lists online. I would call that a symptom of the Tyranid codex in itself; it isn't the best designed book. But I have had Tyranid armies for the past 7 years and would like to think I know how to play them quite well, and my own gaming group can confirm that I have spent the past few months finally crafting that list after many many play tests.

    I learnt later, that a couple of the players at the tournament, did indeed get there lists straight off the internet. I suppose the question I am asking to the general gaming community is this:

    Is copying army lists off the internet an honest way to play?
    Am I as a gamer being unfair as to judge those who do?
    Is my grumpiness over reacting to what otherwise may have been a fair comment?
    What are your opinions on the topic in question?

  2. #2

    Default

    There's nothing inherently wrong or unsporting in fielding a net list, whether or not you picked it up from the intertubes or not.

    However, I feel those who only ever net list are missing out. You're fielding something you're told is hard, but will never really understand why it's so hard. Typically, they revolve more around outright power than sneaky tactics they allow, and as such, whether or not you picked it yourself or from the net, you risk being labelled a power gamer. Many will rightly not care, after all, my hobby is not your hobby, and we all get different things from it. But others might feel peer pressure to change their list, and thus their hobby, because others cannot or will not adapt their own list and tactics to counter it.

    That to me is ultimately self defeating. Power gaming is not achieved with the list alone. It's more about the personality of the gamer. You can field the most rubbish list ever, and quibble over every bloody rule and measurement made, and this be an undesirable (to me) opponent, compared to a really nice and easy going gamer whose list just happens to be harder than a Gypsy's Nan.

    But either way, never apologie for your hobby. Whether or not I'd want to play you again is irrelevant. Popular opinion is all too often ill informed, and the result of picking up your opinion from some bloke on the Internet who had his arse handed to him, when clearly all should know better than beating him.

    Beardy is in the eye of the beholder!
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  3. #3

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    Personally I don't play "net lists" as I don't enjoy the tournament setting. But my feelings on the "net list" and people who take them is why not. If you are starting a new army and want to make sure your buying whats right for you without wasteing money then fair enough. We're all reading tactica on different stuff anyway, a net list is just one step further. However copying a net list doesn't guarantee sucess. Just having the models doesn't make the player better. Only experience offers that.
    However I just play with friends, we all use models we like the look of and worry about performance after. That's just us and I perfectly understand those that want to maximise performance especially if your gaming area is competative. Nobody enjoys loosing on a regular basis. Each to their own I guess.
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  4. #4
    Brother-Captain
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    Default

    It's a bit different with Tyranids. There are only a very few good units, so most people end up with very similar armies even though they haven't just copied them off of the internet.

  5. #5

    Default

    People play the game for different reasons if list building does not do it for you then why not take a list from the net, I think been asked if you did copy a list off the net just suggests that you have a good list worthy of been copied.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anggul View Post
    It's a bit different with Tyranids. There are only a very few good units, so most people end up with very similar armies even though they haven't just copied them off of the internet.
    This. Tyranis terribly suffer from "Best in Slot" syndrome all over there codex. There are only a handful of ways to run a competitive list with their codex.

    Secondly as Mr Mystery and Deadlift said it shouldn't really bother you one way or another if someone thinks you are net listing. Personally in a competitive environment like that net listing to me is similar to just asking a group of friends to help make a list. On my local 40k forums people are always posting their lists looking for constructive feedback to become better for our local league/playoffs. If you opponent chooses not to use a resource available to just about anyone (the internet) to help them come up with a better list then the burden is on them to play/construct a list better.

  7. #7

    Default

    It doesn't matter how many of them did (or didn't ) get their lists off the internet. People gravitate toward what works. The gun is king in 6th Edition and as a result the number of gun lines is growing at an exponential rate. Even if nobody had the internet, the same thing would happen. Until they get Nids a new book you are behind the eight ball. Even when they give you a new book there is no guarantee you will get out from behind it.

    It would be boring (but in synch with 6th Edition) but you can make a list which is mostly those little scoring, shooty bugs all set up for maximum shots and spam them via the mycetic. Volume of fire is a beast. Six units of those things each doing thirty shots does inflict some mean damage.

  8. #8

    Default

    I think Caitsidhe raises an important point. The good will out.

    Give a gamer a Codex, and they will soon identify the units that appeal to them. And if your local community places importance on the competitive side of things, that means units considered most efficient. As you mentioned, this was a Brighton Warlords event, and from what I understand (I'm just up the road in Tunbridge Wells) they're a competitive bunch. As such, they are likely used to net lists.

    However, I am aware that sore losers will use 'net list' as the reason you beat them. Which is rude if you ask me! As covered, you need to know why the list is hard to be successful with it.
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  9. #9
    Chapter-Master
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    Default

    When you look at morality, as per the title of the thread, you need to look at the intent of the individual. Are they a painter/modeller who fancied a change to army 'y' from army 'x', had no clue what a reasonable list was and so used a net list? I would say this is not questionable morality. If you are a beardy power WAAC geek and wanted that net list as the most distilled win to crush your opponents at some tourney, then that is questionable morality.
    I'M RATHER DEFINATELY SURE FEMALE SPACE MARINES DEFINERTLEY DON'T EXIST.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denzark View Post
    When you look at morality, as per the title of the thread, you need to look at the intent of the individual. Are they a painter/modeller who fancied a change to army 'y' from army 'x', had no clue what a reasonable list was and so used a net list? I would say this is not questionable morality. If you are a beardy power WAAC geek and wanted that net list as the most distilled win to crush your opponents at some tourney, then that is questionable morality.
    It's hardly questionable morality to take the most powerful list you can to an event where you go to WIN! It's not a casual gaming event, it's a tournament.
    For the Greater good.

 

 
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