Morality of the Net List

[Wolfshade]

I think the title should be the mentality of the net list.
I may have played a net list, though not conciously so.
It is an interesting construct that we have a hobby with great options but we discover a very good army build up and that becomes spammed. I would agree that there are some options that work better than others at doing specific things, for example I think that the missile laucnher is the best option for tactical marines with their ability to frag or krak. I also bemoan those choices which are in the codex which you can't really see the use for and so never include them, like I have never found a use for shotgun scouts.

But the problem arises with net lists where they do not meet your local playing conditions. I have had problems beating my brother-in-laws nids and so posted the list I was using for some advice, one of the suggests saw putting melta bombs on every sargeant, magna grapple and replacing all special weapons with meltas. This was back in 5th where you couldn't use grenades against things other than vehicles. So a lot of the options were redundant, another replaced high (relatively) rate of fire weapons with single shot high strength again it was aimed at popping armour, something that is lacking in a nid list.

But ho-hum, there are some advantages, as has previously been mentioned, they tend to have a large turn over of models so spend quite a bit with GW, which can only be a good thing, the other advantage (possibly) is that you have a good idea of what you are going to be facing and so can counter those options with how you design your list.

[Caitsidhe]

I think the whole "Net List" thing is vastly overblown. It has become a meaningless term like "Troll" on the internet that is applied whenever someone wants to make an excuse or villify someone. A point in case is one of my own lists. I have an (1850) CSM/IG list in which I build an artillery line for Sabres anchored on a platoon and Lord Commissar. They are the allies. The rest of my army is CSM and designed around a very aggressive, board control system. I played it for about three weeks and did amazingly well with it. It caused a storm of debate behind closed doors (and my back). I even had a friend of mine (who plays Orcs and whose planes I shot down) tell me that my list was all over the internet and he didn't like net lists. I had to smile...

"Really? My list is so popular it is all over the internet?"

"Yes. I've seen it several places."

"That's funny. I follow all the sites and the only places I've seen it on the internet is where I myself have posted it."

There are other aspects of the story but it suffices to say my list has not gone viral. The only proponent of it seems to be me. I am never going to assume anyone just copied their list from the internet, unless they tell me that. I suspect most smart people will come to similar conclusions when they study a codex or combination of such books. I tend to assume my opponent is at least as smart as I am (however intelligent that may be). It seems all to common for most people to assume they are smarter than their opponent, or at least somehow "morally" superior. I can't tell you how little I think of the attitude.

In the end, it doesn't matter does it? You should always assume you are in for a hard fight. You do the best you can do with what you have. Even if someone is going to the internet to look for ideas, isn't the gaming community online just an extension of your friends and opponents locally? Don't you ask your friends for advice (or get it whether you ask or not) on what you should use? What would be the difference between you getting my opinion on a good list online or in person?

[Wolfshade]

I don't know Caitsidehe I've been spamming it all over the place

That is an interesting aspect, "you only beat me because your list is a net-list."

If you recall some of the old tactica posts by goatboy you will recall that he is a fan of redundancy in lists, and if you have an efficient mechanism for doing something, then you end up spamming it.
I love fast vindicators, and so invarriably I will run 3, is that because I am spamming them? Possibly, but the question is why? The reason is because I believe them to be very useful at killing large numbers and they also deal really well with armour (thanks 6th ) I think they are the only S10 option in my codex. HQ choice then is going to be a librarian as the psychic powers are very good (and I can get chaplains through elites if need be), chances are I'll have a priest for a FnP bubble and assault squads and before you know what has happened you end up with a rather generic feeling list.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't know Caitsidehe I've been spamming it all over the place

Preach it brother. The sooner we see the Sabre Artillery line in common use the sooner the flying circus combinations will go away for more balanced options. I'm considering running my list at this year's Alamo GT just to punish the flying circus.

That is an interesting aspect, "you only beat me because your list is a net-list."

It is interesting and kind of sad. The ONLY time I hear the words "Net List" come out of someone's mouth is when they are complaining about the butt-kicking they just received and need to scapegoat why they lost.

If you recall some of the old tactica posts by goatboy you will recall that he is a fan of redundancy in lists, and if you have an efficient mechanism for doing something, then you end up spamming it.

I tend to agree that you should go for the units that give you the most reliable bang for the buck, but I differ with Goatboy on strategy in that I think (particularly in 6th) that you also want the most options to deal with the widest variety of types of builds since you never know who you are going to pull on a particular round. As such my own most competitive "pure" CSM build only has a single Helldrake in it. I know that seems to fly in the face of net wisdom, but I simply have too many other scenarios to build for to spam three of the things. I considered two, but in the end I went to one because I truly needed the points to handle other kinds of opponents. There are still factions whose basic function is so good due to the nature of 6th Edition that spamming them is the best competitive option. This also tends to be emphasized when the army is really only good at one thing (like say Tau). However, allies still give the option of bringing in other options to build a true all comers list.

I love fast vindicators, and so invarriably I will run 3, is that because I am spamming them? Possibly, but the question is why? The reason is because I believe them to be very useful at killing large numbers and they also deal really well with armour (thanks 6th ) I think they are the only S10 option in my codex. HQ choice then is going to be a librarian as the psychic powers are very good (and I can get chaplains through elites if need be), chances are I'll have a priest for a FnP bubble and assault squads and before you know what has happened you end up with a rather generic feeling list.

Yep. You gravitate towards what works in the most reliable way and against the most varied threats. That is true of real military operations too. I'm never going to call someone morally bankrupt for playing the game well.

[pohanew]

I think that if you want to use a net list than so be it but in my opinion I think if you do you aren't confident in you own list making abilities for example I am terrible at making lists but I have managed to come up with a competitive list

HQ
necron overlord with warscythe and res. orb= 130 pts

royal court
necron lord with warscythe and res orb= 75 pts

troop
9 warriors= 117 pts

5 immortals with Tesla carbines = 85 pts

dedicated transport
night scythe (immortals) =100 pts

heavy support

annihilation barge with gauss cannon= 90pts

total 597 pts

this list was made for warhammer world doubles invasion 2013

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

the thing about a net list is you can have it spoon fed to you but if they don't know how to use it or the tricks that it can do most armies wont just play themselves. so you can have a very hard list but if your incompetent and don't know how to use it its just another list. i fear the veteran gamer who knows what his list can and can't do before i fear the twit with the flavor of the month.