Heldrake double whammy legal?

[RTFRB]

Okay guys, been seeing on other forums and especially chaos orientated blogs the notion that a heldrake can perform a vector strike during its zoom move, followed by the baleflamer during the shooting phase. All based on the assumption that zooming flyers can fire 4 weapons...no one is disputing the vector strike counts as having fired one weapon. The assumption is 4 -1 = 3 weapons left to fire, thus you're free to fire the baleflamer as one of those remaining three. BUT -that assumption is wrong in my opinion. The RB says " can fire UP to four of their weapons " (pg 80). That means you can fire UP TO four weapons, but only if you had four or more to fire to begin with! ( my emphasis ) You certainly cannot fire a weapon you don't have. No where -RB, codex, FAQ, etc, does it state the Heldrake suddenly has four weapons to fire, and thus uses one to vector strike instead leaving 3 for later. My argument: the Heldrake when vector striking uses that 1 weapon listed in the codex and thus has no other weapon left in the shooting phase.

[RGilbert26]

What are you on about?

I'm sorry but you don't make any sense.

Stormtalon only has two weapons, is classed as a flyer and so can "fire up to four weapons" - does your weird logic then mean we can only fire one weapon?

Once a Stormraven fires all of its missiles does that then mean it can only fire one gun because it only has three left?

Just because it says fire up to four weapons, does not mean you have to have four weapons in order to fire more than one. Urgh.

[Denzark]

The only problem is that your emphasis is found nowhere in books. Your interpretation is wrong. Read a WD battle report, email the FAQ guys. It shall be wrong for ever more.

[RTFRB]

Okay...let me make it simple.

A flyer has 1 weapon. How many can it fire? 1
A flyer has 2 weapons. How many can it fire? 2
A flyer has 3 weapons. How many can it fire? 3
A flyer has 4 weapons. How many can it fire? 4
A flyer has 5 weapons. How many can it fire? 4
A flyer has 100 weapons. How many can it fire? 4

Assume while "zooming". ( pg 80 )

now...the rule says.... " up to four" correct? ( At full BS, to be more precise) So....simple enough.

A. The Heldrake has _____ number of shooting weapons? 1
B. How many many shooting attacks are used when conducting a vector strike? 1


A-B = number of shooting attacks left. 1 - 1 = 0

BTW -A stormraven can't conduct a vector strike, so I have no idea why you brought that into the picture.

Lets look at a flying hive tyrant, which CAN conduct a vector strike....FMC get how shooting attacks? 2 ( pg 48 )

How many shooting attacks does the flying hive tyrant have after conducting a vector strike? 2 -1 = 1 shooting attack left.

Apply logic to Heldrake. It has a choice - do a vector strike or use the baleflamer attack during the shooting phase. It cant do both because it only has a single shooting weapon.

[RGilbert26]

Flyers can fire up to four weapons, baleflamer counts as one weapon - the Heldake can also vector strike which is normally restricted to FMC but it has been given a special rule which allows it to VC, this also happens to 'count as' a shooting attack. As the codex clearly states the Heldake is a VEHICLE and so the VC uses another of its "up to four" shooting attacks.

I mentioned the stormtalon and Stormraven because with the 'logic' you are using then you'd also say that neither of those two flyers can use their guns as they don't have at least four (SR only has three after all four missiles are fired) weapons.

Still as Denzark said you're interpretating the rules incorrectly.

[Sly]

"A flyer has 1 weapon. How many can it fire? 1"

Incorrect.

Your mistake springs from this mistaken assumption. A Flyer can fire up to 4 weapons. If it has less than 4, clearly it can't fire more than it has. But that's a separate limitation caused by its wargear, not an inherent limitation for its class.

An infantry model can fire one weapon. If it doesn't have a weapon, it's still allowed to fire one weapon.

By your definition, Horrors could not perform shooting attacks because they have no weapons. Wracks have no shooting weapons, therefore they cannot fire a Quad Gun. A Terminator Chaplain with two melee weapons cannot fire a Quad Gun because it has no shooting weapons, but a Terminator Chaplain with a Storm Bolter can fire the Quad Gun.

That's where the mistaken assumption springs from... the number of weapons that a model can fire is limited SEPARATELY by how many weapons it has and by what kind of model it is. A Flyer has a 4-weapon limitation, and a separate limitation based upon how many weapons it actually has. So if it's a situation where it acquires a weapon that it has not fired (perhaps by some Psychic Power from a future Codex), and it hasn't fired 4 weapons that Shooting Phase... it can fire the weapon. Even if that means that it fires more weapons than it started the game with.

[Nabterayl]

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that "up to X" means, as a matter of grammar, "up to X but no more than one has?" If you are, I disagree with you.

EDIT: I agree with Sly. You seem to be taking a logical implication (if one has X things to do, it follows as a matter of logic that one cannot do more than X things unless one somehow acquires more things) and treating it as a grammatical rule. It is not. "Up to X" does not mean "up to X but no more than one has."

[Magpie]

Okay...let me make it simple.

A flyer has 1 weapon. How many can it fire? 1

A Helldrake has how may weapons that count as shooting attacks? 2 (Vector Strike + Baleflamer) How many can it fire in a turn? 4.

1+1=2 which means you have 2 shooting attacks left, which you can't use as you've run out of weapons.
Vector Strike doesn't subtract from the number of shooting weapons you are equipped with, just the number of attacks you are allowed to make.

If you have 3 actual shooting weapons, doing a vector strike doesn't mean you can only now fire 2 of those weapons in the shooting phase. You can fire all 3 and the Vector Strike and you have used the full amount of 4 shooting attacks you are allowed.

[Caitsidhe]

Basically what has happened is somebody did a Vector Strike on his vehicle, toppled his people out and then killed them with the Baleflamer. This seemed so cosmically unfair to him that he spent a good couple of hours trying to figure out some Bizarro World logic to prove it is illegal.

[gcsmith]

Basically what has happened is somebody did a Vector Strike on his vehicle, toppled his people out and then killed them with the Baleflamer. This seemed so cosmically unfair to him that he spent a good couple of hours trying to figure out some Bizarro World logic to prove it is illegal.

Wouldn't it make more sense to try the "Can't target two different units in the same turn logic"? Would still be wrong since vector strike doesn't stop you shooting a different target but would still be a more sensible way to try and stop it.