Heldrake double whammy legal?

[Saint_Anger]

Okay guys, been seeing on other forums and especially chaos orientated blogs the notion that a heldrake can perform a vector strike during its zoom move, followed by the baleflamer during the shooting phase. All based on the assumption that zooming flyers can fire 4 weapons...no one is disputing the vector strike counts as having fired one weapon. The assumption is 4 -1 = 3 weapons left to fire, thus you're free to fire the baleflamer as one of those remaining three. BUT -that assumption is wrong in my opinion. The RB says " can fire UP to four of their weapons " (pg 80). That means you can fire UP TO four weapons, but only if you had four or more to fire to begin with! ( my emphasis ) You certainly cannot fire a weapon you don't have. No where -RB, codex, FAQ, etc, does it state the Heldrake suddenly has four weapons to fire, and thus uses one to vector strike instead leaving 3 for later. My argument: the Heldrake when vector striking uses that 1 weapon listed in the codex and thus has no other weapon left in the shooting phase.

I agree with Sly. Your interpretation is wrong. The rulebook just says flyer can fire up to 4 of its weapons, not up to X of its X weapons. If you have problem with the vector strike to blow up transport and get your passengers burnt by baleflamer, use any transport that side armour is 14, and unit that got 2+ armour save or any invulnerable save.

[Daemonette666]

It mentions that it can fire up to 4 of its weapons at "FULL BALLISTIC SKILL" so in effect it could fire more if it had them, but with Snap shots only. Under Vector Strike in the BRB special rules section it does not say it replaces one of the flyers weapons, It says it counts as having already fired a weapon in the shooting phase and since you can shoot up to 4 weapons at full BS, you can therefore fire the Bale Flamer as well.

GW are likely to put out a FAQ on this anyway, and the Helldrake should have been given a second weapon like a TW/L Plasma gun/plasma Cannon profile anyway for a little bit of a points increase.

[RGilbert26]

I just wish the flamer wasnt a ruddy turret, so annoying

[Demonus]

Do you play at stores or with friends? If the latter, house rule that it is on a 180 degree front arc, drop the price by 10pts, and call it a day.

[Caitsidhe]

I just wish the flamer wasnt a ruddy turret, so annoying

Annoying but that is what the Helldrake was really designed to do, i.e. it is a highly specialized air-to-ground infantry killer. It is mediocre with the cannon (which is why so few take it), and the Vector Strike while useful in AA, it is still really best at cracking open cans so the dragon can eat the tender vittles inside.

I use two Helldrakes in my standard all comer lists below 2000pts because they do the job I need them to do. I won't use three not only because I have other strategic goals beyond slaughtering infantry, but also because against certain opponents three would be so brutal and unfun that it amounts to animal cruelty. Two Helldrakes can be dealt with, albeit with difficulty, but three for certain factions cannot.

Games Workshop intended for the Helldrake to be an actual mechanical dragon. The head can turn any direction, the wings appear to flap, and in theory at least some of that flaming could have been happening as it zoomed over you. There are countless cinematic ways to describe it and that is key. The funny thing about the Helldrake is it is hardest on a Chaos Space Marine player. Our Terminators aren't that great. Most of our 2+ is Obliterators and/or the odd special character. We rely very heavily on Power Armor. As a result I don't like fighting the Helldrakes anymore than any of you do.

1. AA is your friend. You should have at least two overlapping forms of AA. I like to use an Aegis w/Quad and my own Helldrakes.
2. Twin-Linked weapons statistically are your pal. There is 1/3 chance any twin-linked shot will hit. I use Obliterators.
3. If you get a shot at the rear, why not take it. Shoot every damn Bolter shot you can. So what if you need a 6 to hit/damage.

Obviously when facing someone with a Helldrake (or any potentially nightmarish flyer) it is better to go second when you are bringing your own birds in. It also pays to reset your immediate goals and position yourself to wait until his/her birds are in. Make him stretch to make those first kills. It does you no good to surge forward and have him cut off valuable units in passing. You will end up being taken apart in detail. Never forget the weird cheese of placement. A restrained, going second army can brick up to make landing areas bad and somewhat (every little bit counts) control where the Helldrake must stop to do its thing. Also, the Helldrake may ignore cover but it does not ignore line of sight. Keep terrain in mind for emergency disembarks or early placement since a solid wall can mean that you cannot be flamed.

I tend to keep a lot of Drop and Pop units in my lists for options. A standard Termicide unit is great utility and when I have to face an opponent also using Helldrakes, I actually start them at the table and manning my Quad Gun. I might as well put the basic CSM unit in reserve and increase the amount of time it lives and the Quad keeps firing.

[ted1138]

I've had this argument with people, and as far as I see, until GW come out and make a clear statement on the issue(something they seem to avoid doing whenever possible), it's never going to be resolved. Both side's points are equally valid, so either you roll a dice to see who's interpretation is used, or you walk away.

PS, it's always worth remembering, if a rule interpretation helps you avoid having to do something you don't want to do, or it helps you get extra effects from that rule, then chances are you're breaking that rule(ie, 'if i read this rule my way, then the rule has no effect on me')...

[Denzark]

Yeah but it is clear. Fliers can fire up to 4 weapons at full BS. VS counts as having fired one weapon. 4-1 = 3 weapons the Heldrake could should, if it had them.

[Tynskel]

You are having trouble reading the rules. You need to look at the assumptions. One of them is flawed, because if it is applied consistently, it prevents all sorts of models from shooting.

[ted1138]

Does Vector striking prevent you from moving Flat-Out? I was once told by an opponent that they could. His argument was something like, 'VS counts as having fired one weapon, but since it didn't actually fire a weapon, it doesn't count as having fired a weapon, thus I can do whatever I want, including firing weapons, or moving flat-out'...

[rtmaitreya]

Counts as having fired one weapon. Hard to argue with that. It ain't fluff, it's rules. If you fire a weapon, you can't move flat out. Heldrake vector striking counts as having fired a weapon. It did, right there, fired a weapon. Right in the rules. Not fluff text, rules.