Codex: Adepta Sororitas

[Melissia]

1: They receive such training at the Schola Progenium and the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas, due to their connection with the Ordo Hereticus.

2: Combat Resolution in an assault. If you think Stubborn is effectively useless, then you don't know 40k very well.

3: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accurizing]Educate yourself.[/url] Effectively, this is a standard weapon that has been tweaked and customized to be more accurate. This happens all the time in the modern military, and I have no problem seeing a Mechanicus ritual (performed for a fee of course) to convince the machine spirit to fire more accurately.

4a: No they aren't.
4b: Two twin-linked bolt pistol shots.

5: And you get a model that is effectively a Celestian Sister Superior with two wounds for that. Only without Holy Hatred.

6a: What? You're saying a 2+ save is worse than a 3+ save? Try being more coherent.
6b: Read the fluff behind the unit.
6c: Read the fluff behind the unit.
6d: I disagree.

7a: Granted to the Sororitas by the Ecclesiarchy.
7b: I compromised between C:IG priests and C:WH priests when I producd that statline and equipment.

8a: I see no reason why they should. They're still just S3/T3, even with their occasional boost to initiative..
8b: I can do that.
8c: And yet you whined about them being good in point 8a. How ironic.

9: I don't think so.

10a: Maybe. But you misspelled the name of the squad.
10b: Seen, and ignored for being wrong.
10c: Which would not properly emphasize their role as mid-ranged damage dealers.
10d: Apparently it's not.

11a: They fire them at BS3, however, and they're still S3.
11b: Look up Squad Designated Marksman.

12: Chapter 9: Units and Rules Under Discussion

13: They have the same statline, but have Scouts instead of being Scoring. I don't see why they should have an increased price.

14: I couldn't care less if it offends you.

15: Tell GW that. Also, no.

16: Same cost as assault marines, but without MEQ. Deal with it.

17: Chapter 9: Units and Rules Under Discussion

18a: Predator chassis vehicles all received price reductions in all Imperial codices. This one got the smallest of price reductions.
18b: It is, just a few points shy of that.

19: Chapter 9: Units and Rules Under Discussion

20a: It gives up large blast to instead have a 1/3rd chance to melta. That's hardly more of a "monster" than the LRBT is.
20b: Don't care, too bad, so sad. Already been discussed to death, and my reasons for making the decision have been stated and overstated time and time again.

21: For someone whining so much about the fluff, you appear to have forgotten the holy trinity of Sister weapons.

22: And in this case, the model still dies, but its passengers survive due to the sacrifice of the crew. It's less complex than Orders at least.

23: Deal with it. It's basically the same price as the current one, I just added +1 to frontal armor.

24: Deal with it. It's basically the same rule as Marines have with their Rhinos, only I gave it a name.

25a: That is the rule as it is. See the C:WH FAQ.
25b: I made her worth taking compared to other similarly priced models in fifth edition codices.
25c: It does have a limitation.

26a: Then suggest a price.
26b: Suggest an alternative. These are GW's rules, not mine.

[Irdion]

1: The Schola instructs students to be perfect imperial citizens, with the premier imperial education and weapons training. Not to hunt down Psykers. The Ordo Hereticus does that, but given that THEY don't have Preferred Enemy: Psykers, I see little reason why the Eccleisiarchies goon squad should.

2: I had assumed shooting, as I didn't see Stubborn mentioned. Shows what I get for working by keywords for so long.

3: Word it may be, and I now consider myself enlightened upon this vocabulary expansion, it still makes little sense why this would occur, given the very clear background material on the Sisterhood and Eccleisiarchy holding onto what tech relics they posses as the Mechanicus is largely unwilling to deal with them. And likewise, this is NOT the modern military. They work on well-understood technologies with simple maintenance procedures, not guns with computer-assisted targeting which you need to pray to in order to have it function properly. If your explanation were the case, why would the true elites and Peers of the Imperium, the Astartes, not have them?

4a: Yes, they are. Given that chain of argument, this could go on for awhile.

4b: Still a VERY expensive set of two bolter shots. Excuse me while I pick up a Power Sword and Plasma Pistol for the same price.

5: True, and with 2 Faith Points on top of that which I can easily hide in a unit for ablative wounds. Why wouldn't I spam these again?

6a-d: Clearly we are operating on different wavelengths. Terrible fan-fiction does not a new unit make. You seem to be leaving out the whole Mechanicus/Imperial Cult schism, and show little knowledge of how technological knowledge is imparted. It is a religious cult of the machine, dedicated to the Omnissiah. Combining the true, pure faith of the Sisterhood with other religious teachings makes little sense.

7a: True, but only in the case of the Mantle. The Cloak is a unique artifact which St. Aspira herself wore, blessed on Holy Terra; about as Sororita unique as you can get. Likewise, the Ophelian Mantles are given over to the Sisterhood as well. The Priesthood has their own vestments.

7b: Understandable

8a: A good point, but Holy Hatred makes hitting less of a concern, leaving only wounding rolls which can be pumped up through wargear - really making those hits count. Albeit it is entirely possible I am placing too much weight on potential rather than existing utility.

8c: Needing to cost more is not necessarily counter-intuitive on this point. My argument consists of what they need to differentiate themselves. Counter-Attack, Furious Charge? something to make them distinct from normal Battle Sisters.

9: Be that as it may, its the transport which constrains assaulting out of it. Hence why we have the Open-Topped rule, and the exception with the Assault Vehicle rule.

10a: Apologies

10c: Not an excuse for a totally nonsensical rule. Boltguns with a longer range do that on their own.

10d: Pointing out that it makes no sense, no more than that. Obstinacy doesn't change that.

11a: They do, but they are Assault 2. Larger squad with better weaponry than Marine Scouts for cheaper? 1 less strength and toughness doesn't justify that.

11b: where?

13: Because they can outflank their Designated Transport with them. Immolater in the flank is scary.

14: Well then, explain how it is point-justifiable? An entire squad with Flamers and Infiltrate?

15: There are many things I would like to tell Games Workshop, not many of them are kind.

16: Point Taken

18: Pointing to the most under-costed unit in the Witch Hunters Codex and using price reductions in other codex's hardly seems fitting. This is entirely opinion on my part, naturally, but the Sponson Launchers really remove any semblance of balance the Exorcist had.

20a: Entirely forgetting the BS4 and the AP1. BS4 alone is worth 30 points.

20b: "I don't like Rhino-chassis vehicles, they're stale" is not a valid argument. Entertaining in my dark pit of a heart, but totally irrelevant. There isn't any fluff backing for the decision, and that's all that matters to me.

21: I have not, but inventing a clunky new ruleset for a nonsensical weapon is not really the way to go about it.

22: But Mishap is there to prevent you from being overly bold. Valkyries and Stormravens crash and explode, what makes the dropship special?

23: Fair enough, no worse than the Baal Predator I suppose.

24: Marines are Special Snowflakes. Don't you know this by now?

25a: So it is. Seems I've been playing my model wrong for awhile.

25b: No, you made an unkillable model excepting a 3/36 chance. There really is no way to excuse that fact.

25c: Not compatible with Hand of the Emperor or The Passion is not a limitation.

26a: 170? I'm spitballing, because there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rules for pricing special characters.

26b: Fair enough, but it seems a bit much. A modified Leadership test would at least give the enemy a sporting chance.

[Melissia]

1: Good thing I didn't create any goon squads. I created the Sisters of Battle. Hate the witch, find the witch, burn the witch. Also, the Schola DOES in fact provide education to seek out and find heretics and witches-- to commissars, at least, as shown by Ciaphas Cain. It's an advanced lesson, but a lesson nonetheless, and I see no reason why the Sisters wouldn't also receive such lessons given their connections to both the Imperial Cult and the Inquisition. In both aspects, they must root out heresy and witchcraft.

2: The Book of St. Lucius is, effectively, an enhanced version of Stubborn. Stubborn normally applies to only morale tests, while the BoSL applies to both morale tests and pinning tests.

3: The Mechanicus does this kind of thing all the time. They just get angry when OTHER people do it.

4a: So stop it.
4b: Two bolter shots which re-roll to-hit, and also provides an extra attack and all attacks re-roll to hit. It might be slightly overcosted, but not by that much.

5: Because you can only have two HQ slots, and Heroines hit much harder and have a better retinue.

6: The Mechanicus also worships the Emperor, under a different name. It is not such a high hurdle as you make it.

7a: The Cloak of St. Aspira is not unique, and never has been. Blessed Weapons are unique, one per army, yes, but the Cloak? No.

8a: Yes you are. Keep in mind that, as good as they seem, they're still just human. S3/T3 is still a rather strong limitation on their abilities in close combat, and T3 is a strong limitation in general.

8c: They do differentiate themselves-- through being equipped for close combat, having WS4 / I4, and Holy Hatred. Things which Battle Sisters do not have.

9: Which is something that someone who wants to transport their Repentia will have to deal with.

10c: It's no more nonsensical than having no reduction in accuracy for having moved. Or a tank being unable to fire its weapons while moving. Or guys with axes being able to assault a skimmer which should be able to just raise out of their reach.

10d: You mean pointing out that you're wrong by saying that apparently it's not necessarily of the same STC is nonsensical? Nevermind the fact that there are variations on the same weapons all throughout the Imperium. Just the various Leman Russ and Baneblade patterns prove this, but if you want to look into small arms? The variation is much, much larger. Go read the Dark Heresy: Inquisitor's Handbook supplement for examples of the innumerable variations on small arms in 40k. And yes, before you whine, Dark Heresy is just as much canon as any BL book, if not moreso. It is a licensed work, and GW's own authors actually are attributed as writers in several of the supplements.

11a: Also one less toughness, as well, and no infiltration abilities, and no heavy weapon, and no frag/krak grenades, no pistol, etc etc etc.

11b: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle[/url]
One example of a weapon designed for the Squad Designated Marksman. Effectively, it is an accurized and modified M16 rifle, able to provide mid-ranged sniping and fire support.

13: And it's supposed to be. But it's no scarier than, say, a certain Guard character who can outflank anything.

14: They cost 20 points each, are 0-1, and can only ever have five members. Orks pay 15 points for Burna Boyz, but Burnaz are also power weapons so that comparison is awkward-- Orks obviously have a lower save, but hit harder, and furthermore Orks also have the ability to take squads up to fifteen and ride in open topped transports wth front armor 14 that also always get a 4+ cover save. I kinda wish I was joking, but I'm not.

Eldar pay 16 points a model for Fire Dragons, and those are meltaguns... while they have a lower save, they also have higher initiative, meltabombs, and special abilities from the Exarch. One could make a point that Sisters of the Nightflame are overcosted. Five could wipe this squad out in one turn, and the Exarch's shot could ignore cover at BS5, while costing less than the Nightflame Veterans.

15: Agreed.

18: Rhinos are undercosted? Razorbacks? Predators? Vindicators? Whirlwinds? Well, I suppose then my costing of it has precedent then.

20a: So basically you're saying it's balanced, seeing as it DOES cost 30 points more than the LRBT (AP1 is part of being melta as far as I'm concerned). Good for you, let's move on.

20b: But "I don't care" never gets old. For me, anyway.

21: It's hardly clunky, it works within the rules quite clearly, modifying things, but not adding anything new.

22: They're designed for it. They're orbital landing vehicles.

24: Yes, special, but not in the way you're using it.

25b: So basically like Yarrick, except a bit tougher.

25c: Must be used on a model within a certain distance of Celestine. I might reduce that radius, but that's the limitation. I might even make it be only Celestine and the unit she's joined.

26: Personally? I want to redesign Praxedes entirely. Her rules and points costs are a throwback to second edition, and they're very awkward here.


I'm surprised you didn't comment on penitent engines... that's one of hte units I can't seem to get quite right, and the one I want the most comments on.

[Irdion]

Primarily because I see no way to fix Penitent Engines in the current ruleset. Arguably one of the most awesome units in the game, and no way to fix them to my mindset. Everything I've ever tried has made them either ridiculously overpowered, or even more useless.

1: Rooting it out is much different from killing it. Unbound Psykers have entire Witch Hunter armies sent to kill them, mostly with massive casualties. You don't kill these guys regularly enough to get preferred enemy against them. Cain was smart enough to attempt running the other way.

2: I got it the first time, I had just glossed over the implications.

3: Exactly, and people get killed. Sisters dutifully maintain their equipment, they don't experiment with it. You want to play with all sorts of cool toys, play the awesome Mechanicus fandex over at Tempestus.

4a: Soon as you give me a reason why both are necessary. They are fundamentally the same thing, excepting the number of hands and a difference of 1 Strength. Why should both exist?

4b: With WS 5, you're going to be hitting on 3's most times, so the reroll is mostly unnecessary. You have strength 3, so wounding is iffy (4+ at best), and the opponent gets their full save. A normal bolter is about 3 points for equivalency in shooting. What makes this worth 20 points?

5: Meh, not hard enough to justify the extra 35 points. I can take 2 Angeli for a fraction more than a single Heroine. And all a retinue is is an additional Kill Point in Annihilation missions. Much better to attach to squads.

6: On the contrary, the worship a facet of the Emperor as the pinnacle of logic and truth, largely considered subversive if not outright heretical by the Imperial Cult. The hurdle is indeed quite high.

7a: This is news to me. I had always presumed that the cloak was the Cloak of Saint Aspira.

8a: I'll roll with this, primarily because it makes sense to me. I am convinced.

8c: Indeed, but that hardly makes them a unique role. These need to be elite! All they are know is Sister's with anger issues and a slightly different combat loadout.

9: As it should be. Without an Open-Topped vehicle or an Assault Vehicle, the Repentia should not be able to assault out of a transport. Quite frankly, why not make a Repressor variant that is open-topped? Give it a Siege gun of some sort for polite knocking at the door, and you have a solid Sister exclusive variant.

10c: Justifying absurdity with absurdity does not make valid precedent.

10d: I was hardly going to whine about Dark Heresy. My whinging is based on the concept that, barring a few very small differences, the vast majority of weapons are basically identical, and the ones that aren't are exceedingly rare. It is very hard to argue that the Sororita would be toting heavy weapons more powerful than the Marines (who have the whole testicular shrinking steroid nutcase route), or the Guard (who simply stick them in place and wait for the enemy). If anything, the Sororitas Heavy Bolter would be weaker than the Marine version, if only because it would be impossible for a normal human (even in power armor) to lift.

11a: Still performs the basic shotgun scout role far better, and still doesn't explain why the weapons ignore cover. Likewise, the squad is twice as big as the similarly costed scout squad.

11b: I repeat my statement on weapons being of a similar mark, and mass issued for the purposes of 40k. If you want guns that make sense, check out Flames of War.

13: Fair enough, but Guard pays for that privilege. Admittedly though, my argument here seems based on semantics and perceived threat. The precedent I have makes one pay for this kind of ability.

14: Burna Boyz don't have Power Armor, can't Infiltrate, and have pre-existing fluff which makes sense, same as Fire Dragons. Reverse the rolls and let the Nightflame squad get their shots off, and watch that big unit of Burna Boyz crumple, or those Eldar Fire Dragons reduced to smoldering wrecks. The difference is neither of those units, carrying pyrotechnic displays in their pockets, try to get away with Infiltrating. Plus, they don;t have silly names.

18: I'm not mentioning anything other than the Exorcist here. You've gone off and improved its already considerable main gun, and added the option to take away its weaknesses. That merits a price increase.

20a: Pretty much the exact opposite. Make this thing 200 points, and we'll talk.

20b: Meh, its your 'dex. You know there isn't any fluff basis without creating it.

21: Much simpler to just call it an Autocannon and make it an option. You're trying to make an Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Team outside of their codex.

22: So are Drop Pods, and when they mishap (off the table or other nonsense) they still can blow up into tiny bits with all the passengers inside. Stormravens are a better example, because they are orbital entry vehicles, and you know what? Still blow up into tiny pieces with all the passengers on a mishap.

24: Entirely agreed.

25b: Yarrick has a 50% chance of death. Celestine has an 8% chance. Hardly sporting.

25c: Either one would work. Heck, making it an aura ability ala Sanguinary Priests might be a better way to represent it. Give her more of a reason to justify that point cost IMO.

26: Agreed. She has a great background, and really should return as a character. The only problem I have with her is how situational she is. there isn't really a way to turn her into anything BUT a raving Psyker hunter.

[Melissia]

1: The Witch Hunters picked the Sisters out of all the Imperial forces to assist them in hunting down rogue psykers. They also help guard the Black Ships. Apparently they do have experience and know-how, more than other Imperial organizations at any rate.

3: Which is why they pay the Mechanicus to do it for them.

4a: You answered your own question.

4b: And what points cost would you give it? As I said, it might be a bit overcosted, but I'm not sure it's THAT much over what it should be.

5: If you attach to squads, the HQ unit can be targeted by a hidden power fist, and killed in one blow. If you have a retinue, however, they count as upgrade characters, and therefor cannot be targeted specifically in close combat until they're the last ones alive in the squad. It's a HUGE benefit to the model's survivability.

6:Logic yes, truth? Hardly. The Mechanicus lies to its own people just as much as any other organization. It does not reveal the truths of science except to a privileged few.

7a: If it was, then why could you have two of them in any army?

8c: And they aren't elite... how? They hit faster, they hit more often, they can hit harder (better equipment for close combat), and they can have better upgrades. These are not sternguard, or vanguard veterans, or terminators, or nobs, or striking scorpions, or whatever, they are Celestians. Their own unique flair on the elite assault squad.

9: I'm not touching the Repressor. It's an Imperial Armour vehicle, and so any updates will be done thorugh Imperial Armour.

10c: You don't seem to comprehend what a precedent is. Quite simply, a precedent is "an example that is used to justify similar occurrences at a later time". GW's decisions may be absurd to you, but it does establish a precedent for making Rhino variant vehicles cheaper.

10d: How much, then, do you claim a Marine heavy bolter weighs? How much, then, do you claim a Sororitas in power armor can lift? I don't buy your arguments even for an instant.

11a: Look at the name of the ammunition.

11b: So quit whining then.

14: Watch those burna boyz be wasted... oh wait nevermind, they're in a battlewagon, sorry about that they're perfectly fine.

18: And I'm talking about overall balance. I am designing a codex, not a single unit.

20a: No.

20b: One simply cannot create an adequate amount of units to match fifth edition codex in numbers of options without making **** up. There is not enough fluff about Sisters to do so.

21: Autocannons aren't bolter weapons, flamer weaposn, or melta weapons. Therefor, no. Even Exorcists are described as (stupidly, IMO) melta missiles.

22: And the expensive dropship blows up but allows its passengers to arrive semi-safely in the deployment zone. It's something that the dropship pays for.

25b: Yarrick also costs less and has more army-effecting rules, and a ridiculous amount of weapons.

25c: So mind writing up an example of what your proposed rule might be worded?

26: Turn her into a monstrous creature / HQ killer?



Did you find the Frateris Militia units?

[Necrosis]

Sisters are the main guards on black ships. They do spend a lot of time there. Thus it does make sense for them to have preferred enemy vs psykers.

[Melissia]

By the way, to expand upon my point of having to make **** up in order to make a full fifth edition codex, here's a list of units which I basically completely pulled out of my arse:

Angelis Imperial
Priestess of the Machine
High Priestess (no such rank to my memory, but arguably it could represent any high-level official)
Palatine Atraea
Vindictor Squad
Conflagrator Light Tank
Cult of the Blazing Sun
Sisters of the Nightflame
Leman Russ Vengeance
Heirophant Siege Tank
Adepta Sororitas Dropship

The rest could be justified or renamed to match something in the fluff already. That's just shy of half of this codex. Cutting these units out would leave the codex with... twelve units I think, not including transports. Space Marines have 32 units in their codex not including special characters. Guard have 23 not including special characters, Leman Russ variants, the various squads within Infantry Platoons, the various types of Hellhounds, and the various types of Artillery pieces. Tyranids have 31 units not including special characters.

Quite frankly, I'm being conservative with my list of units.

4 HQ choices
6 Special Characters (two upgrade chars and one more independent char still planned)
4 Elites Choices (including Arco-Flagellants)
3 Troops Choices (including Citizens)
5 Fast Attack Choices (including Zealots)
5 Heavy Support Choices (including the Heirophant Siege Tank).

That's a fairly light codex. MERELY 21 units without special characters. Even if we divvy up the Citizens into two separate squads, it still doesn't put us that close to fifth edition codices. The Sisters NEED new fluff to be made up, and since I'm making this codex, that means I get to make up the fluff. This includes advancing the plot, and having something similar to the Marian Reformation happening (and a civil war take place amongst the Ecclesiarchy because of it) due to a Living Saint desiring to change the Sisters for the better.

[Nabterayl]

If I can jump in here on three points:

Preferred Enemy. Irdion makes a good point that psykers are not necessarily so similar to each other that you could learn to fight them (since there is no "them" to learn how to fight). However, it does make sense that Sororitas would hate psykers, and judging by space marine chaplains, that has the same in-game effect. If the rule instead was, "Such is the hatred of the Sororitas for the witch that any model with this rule may re-roll failed rolls to hit in close combat against a unit that contains a psyker," wouldn't we say, "Why not just say Preferred Enemy?"

Book of Saints. Sororitas may be schola educated, but they're Sororitas trained. Like space marines, they have the potential to be the best soldiers in the Imperium. Like space marines, their psychology sometimes gets in the way of that. I totally buy sisters militant holding on, bellowing the sermons of St. Whatshisname, in situations where a storm trooper would say, "Um, ladies? We really should be falling back now ..."

Machine Priestess. Irdion, I'm a little confused as to what you're arguing for. Can you source this "feud" between the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus? It's not holding up in my mind. The Mechanicus at least worship the Emperor. Space marines blatantly do nothing of the kind, but the Ecclesiarchy has no problem making fellowship with each and every chapter cult. The truth is that the Ecclesiarchy is pretty pragmatic so long as you recognize the Emperor as the ruler and defender of mankind, which the Mechanicus certainly does. So I see no reason why the Ecclesiarchy should hold any special hatred for the Mechanicus. As for the other side of the fence, the Mechanicus is plainly willing to proselytize, as techmarines evidence. In fact, not only does the Mechanicus proselytize, it does so on a non-exclusive basis: techmarines don't renounce their chapter cults when they are trained; they simply add belief in the cult mechanicus, and apparently Mars is okay with that. I don't see why the Mechanicus would accept that and fail to accept a woman who held dual beliefs in the cult mechanicus and the cult imperialis. The cult imperialis is way more compatible with the cult mechanicus than are most chapter cults, after all.

But whatever "feud" may exist between Ecclesiarchy and Mechanicus, we need to remember that its severity is limited by the simple fact that the Sororitas can still make war. It's the Mechanicus that builds the Ecclesiarchy's war materiel, and the Mechanicus that maintains it (either directly or indirectly). So are you just saying that rather than having a priestess of the machine, the codex should include a techpriest enginseer?

[Melissia]

On Penitent Engines:

I'm pondering removing the rule and giving them T6, fearless warrior, give another wound, and make force weapons count as power weapons (applicable mostly to daemonhunters force weapons and the sword of asur), which remove all wounds).

[Nabterayl]

On Penitent Engines:

I'm pondering removing the rule and giving them T6, fearless warrior, give another wound, and make force weapons count as power weapons (applicable mostly to daemonhunters force weapons and the sword of asur), which remove all wounds).

You mean Eternal Warrior?

That strikes me as fair. I mean, if a Penitent Engine fell into a Jaws of the World Wolf crack, it really ought to be destroyed, and the current rules would prevent that.

I still think it's odd that you give them a heavy flamer instead of two flamers, though. Also, if you remove the Rampage rule, would you be removing the DCCWs from their wargear, and just making them S10?