Codex: Adepta Sororitas

[sirrouga]

I'm not trying hard to make everything unique, I'm doing my best to make the Sisters have their own full and actual army, exactly what I said I would be doing in thef rist post of my thread. With the exception of Acts of Faith, there aren't that many Special Rules which weren't simplified into a USR or statline, and those that are are equivalent to current fifth edition codices.

Well when you read through all the new unit concepts, a lot of them have 1 or 2 new entries detailing new special rules or war gear. There are exceptions like the standard Battle Sister Squad. I don't think just about everything new needs all sorts of all new stuff. Just a small tweak can go long ways.

Furthermore, despite your complaints, you haven't pointed out an actual example of something getting everything without paying for it. For example, the current Battle Sister Squad is actually MORE expensive base than the one we currently have (essentially raising it from 11 points per model to 12.5). Space Marines still get more for their points than the Battle Sister Squad does, Guard are still dirt cheap for what they do, etc etc etc.

Well actually your Battle Sister squad are CHEAPER than those in the Witch Hunters Codex. Since you included the Veteran, the book that gives the unit basically the stubborn special rule, added favored enemy -pskers (I'm assuming you meant Perferred enemy) and included frag grenades. However, you are only saving about 14 points so it not really that big a deal. Frag grenades should of been standard anyways. -.-

A Direct Hit is only 1/3rd of the time on th scatter dice. I said specifically "when you roll a direct hit on the scatter dice", which means even if it DOES hit because of scatter and BS, it does not always apply the rule. Furthermore, it's one of the most expensive LR Variants in the game, but it still only delivers an S8 small blast. The LRBT is 30 points cheaper and delivers an S8 AP3 LARGE blast, forcing enemy infantry to either hide in transports or hide behind cover in order to not get blown to tiny bits.

Yes it is the most expensive LR variant and it is only a small blast. However just being AP1 more than makes up for that. Not only terminators now have to hide from across the battlefield but that AP1 really boosts the chance of wrecking any vehicle it hits. Now both the LRBT and the Vengeance are ordinance weapons so I can't really compare that but that just makes sure that AP1 shot gets through. Now you add that if it is a direct hit on the scatter (which is about 1/3 of the time averaging) you get basically a melta with two attempts to get through the armor you got yourself the best anti-heavy vehicle weapon in the game and with a 72" range. The Vanquisher has a similar effect but it is a single shot at BS3 and it is only AP2 so it even doesn't get the bonus to damage. Honestly for just 30 more points than a LRBT, I don't see why anyone wouldn't bring in these on a constant basis.

Novitiates aren't given sniper rifles per se, they're given slightly more expensive autorifles-- "Squad Designated Marksman" type weapons. Ratlings are the same price for a squad of ten, and they have infiltrate, stealth, pistols, longer range, and BS4. Scout Snipers are 40 points more expensive but they also have pistols, frag/krak nades, atsknf, S/T/I 4, combat squads, combat tactics, move through cover, infiltrate, scouts, heavy weapons, etc. Rangers and Pathfinders are more expensive, yes, but then the Ranger Long Rifle is very powerful, they get pistols, fleet, bs4, infiltrate, move through cover, stealth, etc. You've yet to prove the assertion that they are cheaper than they should be for their sniper rifle equipment.

They have the sniper rule so they always wound on 4+ and have rending. Plus the ability to rapid fire on anything that gets too close without having to give up a sniper rifle or rapid fire weapon like scouts have to do to do the same. Plus scouts are also more expensive for their special rules and higher S and T. Sure they also have access to heavy weapons but they don't have dedicated transport options. Ratlings are S2, T2 and are not scoring units so that equals out somewhat and other IG squads are paying extra just to take a few sniper rifles. And Eldar rangers with the pathfinder upgrade are 24 points each, of course they should be fairly powerful. I don't know, having access to a sniper rifle, lasgun, 4+ armor, acts of faith, stubborn for that price is just a bit shaky to me.

You might have an argument with the shotguns, but even then, they're still just BS3 low strength high AP weapons. They don't even ignore flak armor, and even if it can hurt against orks and tyranids those armies have a much better assault capability and very cheap large units.

Well the Adeptus Arbites codex made by BoLS peeps has a shotgun similar to what you have. They still allow cover from area terrain and only get one shot if using that "mode". Plus it does say that Ordo Hereticus does call upon them for assistance so getting hold of their shotguns isn't that far off. But I guess this really that bad through.

[Melissia]

Celestians do not have any new rules, just reworked versions of the old rules. Seraphim do not have any new rules, just what's in GW's FAQs. Dominians are just given a USR and more wargear choices. Repentia have their rules simplified with USRs as well. Vindictors have a new rule, but then they are a brand new unit. Penitent Engines are the only thing that's completely reworked with new rules, but oddly enough Rampage is actually LESS complex than the current Penitent Engine rules. Acts of Faith themselves were simplified. Retributors had nothing added to them as far as rules go, but they were given new weapons. Immolators were improved through simple pricing and stat changes.

Compare this to the other codices. When Sternguard and Vanguard were added in, they also recieved new rules for them (the ammunition of Sterguard, the assault after deep striking for Banguard), and practically every new unit added in had its own unique weapon or rule for the Space Marine codex. The entire Guard army got new rules in the form of Orders, too, which many people had trouble understanding at first, and let's not get into the new vehicle variants which also had unique wargear and rules like the hellhound variants, sentinels being split into two types, lumbering behemoth and the LR variants...

As for Novitiates, my point wasn't that the other units were better than the Novitiates, rather it's that the Novitiates aren't better than the other "sniper" units, they're just designed to fit in better with the Sisters of Battle army.

Yes, the Vengeance is powerful. It can take down a Land Raider / Leman Russ (but not a Monolith) roughly 1/3rd of the time! So that's potentially three turns of shooting on the same target just to get one penetrating AP1 hit (by which time your Sisters are in melta range anyway)... huh. It's really not as powerful as you are making it out to be.

[Melissia]

Madness: I'll try and work something up for you soon.

[Madness]

It's just that one stuff is laid down I'm sure everyone will notice better what is actually too wordy and what's not, there's a reason why good manuals provide a better hint of gameplay power than bad manuals do.

I'm sure you will apply the old "remove half of the complication and then remove half of what's left" once you see it "printed".

[sirrouga]

Celestians do not have any new rules, just reworked versions of the old rules. Seraphim do not have any new rules, just what's in GW's FAQs. Dominians are just given a USR and more wargear choices. Repentia have their rules simplified with USRs as well. Vindictors have a new rule, but then they are a brand new unit. Penitent Engines are the only thing that's completely reworked with new rules, but oddly enough Rampage is actually LESS complex than the current Penitent Engine rules. Acts of Faith themselves were simplified. Retributors had nothing added to them as far as rules go, but they were given new weapons. Immolators were improved through simple pricing and stat changes.

Well I'm looking at these again since many of the links are pointing to wrong sections and searching through 15 pages of posts to find a bit of information can get confusing so I was thinking you were still working on those designs. Dominion Squads, Repentia, and Penitent Engines I agree with your changes but mostly because I believe those really needed them so I can't complain. Acts of Faith can go either way, making it an unmodded leadership test is easier but it also gives easier access to Passion and Martyr acts. A full squad evoking an Spirit of the Martyr before they lost a single unit can be weird. A squad of 20 sisters marching down the line with Spirit of the Martyr is going to be a huge problem to deal with.

But there are important changes in the other units that can't be ignored. Seraphim automatically passing the initiative test to hit and fun and the Angelic Visage making friendly units I4 are big changes. Retributors have two brand new and extremely deadly guns. The BoltCannon is a giant AutoCannon with shorter range and the "pipes" is yet an other AP1 missile (Sisters really have tons of those things don't they?). And the pipes will pen anything on a 6 except for land raiders and monoliths. Unable to take Immolators as standard units is kinda strange and FA12 (On a rhino chassis?) are strange but alright. Vindicators are scary since they can be BS5 for the first two turns (and longer if shoved somewhere safe) but I think their cost and lack of infiltrate are fine. There are those two special weapons again through.

Compare this to the other codices. When Sternguard and Vanguard were added in, they also recieved new rules for them (the ammunition of Sterguard, the assault after deep striking for Banguard), and practically every new unit added in had its own unique weapon or rule for the Space Marine codex. The entire Guard army got new rules in the form of Orders, too, which many people had trouble understanding at first, and let's not get into the new vehicle variants which also had unique wargear and rules like the hellhound variants, sentinels being split into two types, lumbering behemoth and the LR variants...

Well, actually you got me there especially with the IG.

As for Novitiates, my point wasn't that the other units were better than the Novitiates, rather it's that the Novitiates aren't better than the other "sniper" units, they're just designed to fit in better with the Sisters of Battle army.

I was just pointing out that compared to other sniper units. These guys are really geared out for their cost. Just making it a choice between a sniper rifle, shotgun, or lasgun (or even bolter) may be better. Nothing like running through a full squad of sniper fire only to get hit with a full squad of rapid fire from the same unit. Will that really happen in game, I doubt it but it is still something to think about.

However I do need to bring up something that I think you over looked. I noticing on all your Sniper weapons you have different strengths. ALL Sniper type weapons wound on 4+ regardless of toughness, they have Rending, they cause pinning, and against vehicles ALL sniper weapons are regarded as Strength 3. So your Marksman AutoRifle and Ophelia Pattern Heavy Bolter will wound a plague marine on a 4+ regardless and against vehicles are treated at strength 3. Not sure if this is something that was missed or something else.

Yes, the Vengeance is powerful. It can take down a Land Raider / Leman Russ (but not a Monolith) roughly 1/3rd of the time! So that's potentially three turns of shooting on the same target just to get one penetrating AP1 hit (by which time your Sisters are in melta range anyway)... huh. It's really not as powerful as you are making it out to be.

Working off of perfect averages, you kinda just used a worst case as your defense on it. Against Land Raiders you would need that dead on so it would be less accurate but the shots that do land dead on are practically guaranteed a penetrating hit with the melta and re-rolling (easier to describe that way) and then the AP1 makes it that you have a 50% chance of destroying the target. While the shot may not hit as much, when it does hit it WILL pen and have a good chance of doing something nasty. Against vehicles without armor 14, you don't even need the melta effect since you get the ordinance ability and with it still being AP1 it still has a really good chance to damage or wreck the vehicle. The melta effect is almost basically making it a strength D weapon since you have two chances to roll 7 or above on the STRONGEST armor out there. This is fine with normal melta weapons since you have to get so close but at 72 inches away that is just a bit crazy in my opinion.

And to continue beating the dead horse (poor Mr Ed), it is still the only LR in an army of Rhinos. Edit: Sorry if I can't get past this but it is just strange. Is having something FA14 that important?

[Melissia]

However I do need to bring up something that I think you over looked. I noticing on all your Sniper weapons you have different strengths.

I added the strength stat to differentiate between the bolter sniper rifles and the autogun sniper rifles when it came to penetration on vehicles. That is the only time it is relevant.

Also, if you think that having FA12 armor on a rhino is strange, I point you to the well-armored Predator and slightly more heavily armored Exorcists, which are both FA13. Indeed, many people have actually suggested I change the LRV into a rhino chassis just to avoid the constant B****ING AND MOANING ABOUT IT. Bitter? No, I would never be bitter about several ... people derailing my thread for close to ten pages complaining incessantly about something which I already said I was not going to change! How dare one think such a thing.

[Madness]

Sidenote, the imperial (and eldar) sniper rifles are based on the old school needle rifle with is neither bolter nor autogun based, it's laser-based, it's descripted as a long range precision lasgun whose extemely focused light beam carries (god knows how) a poisonous needle.

[Melissia]

The one that scouts and ratlings use, anyway. Dark Heresy describes a few normal (ie autogun) based rifles, however, and with the design of the bolter it'd make an excellent anti-materiel rifle.

[sirrouga]

I will just say one last thing then end it here then, no more from me so everyone can rest easily-ish.

If you went to have a game against an Imperial Guard player and you see across the table and see some chimera, some LR tanks, and a Ork Battle Wagon. You are going to question the Battle Wagon because it doesn't fit the rest of the design of the army and really stands out. Is it possible that some orks are working for them? Yes it is (for the time being anyways) but it doesn't mean that is something that really deserves a place on the game table until Apoc time.

Exact same situation here. I'm looking across the table seeing rhinos, exorcists, repressors, and a LR tank? I am going to question it right away because it doesn't fit the rest of the design of the army. I'm not trying to be rude about it but "because they can" isn't really a valid reason much any more. And judging from your reaction it seems I am not alone in that matter. If you received that amount of posts asking the same exact question, I think it would be time to reevaluate the concept.

Now keeping up with multiple forums on this subject is not easy so I understand some trouble there. A project like this is going to get a lot of attention as well so people want to get involved. And people are going to question EVERYTHING you decided on, we all want a great end product but our views on what it should be may be different so we question it.

I am under the impression that isn't what you want through. I getting the vibe that you don't really want our opinions, you just posting it to share your own ideas but anyone that questions it or criticizes it must be mindlessly whining and ranting about things they have no clue about. I gave my concerns over other items in the codex. Sometimes it seemed that because I did not give every single specific example out there that you thought that my point was invalid and gave me a bit of attitude back, but never really getting a real answer for many of my concerns. Over 10 pages of concerns over something and some how we are the problem? That doesn't sound right at all.

Of course I could just be completely wrong here as I do make lots of mistakes and react poorly at times, I am only human(ish). Maybe I am over doing my thoughts on things here, taking things personally, or just saying random things for whatever reason. And if I am wrong then I am greatly sorry but do realize that is the kind of person you are projecting out, take that as you see fit. I hope you the best of luck with your project in whatever path you take it as it does have lots a great concepts. As for me I am locking myself out of this thread to avoid any further flaming (I'm sure this post will be greeted with some severe hatred) and I'll wait until the next one to sink my teeth into again. To the Bat Cave!

[Madness]

I think what people is mostly looking for (and eventually not finding in sufficient amounts) is an elegance of design, a combination of gentle nudges that brings us from stuff we know about to new stuff you're introducing without straying too far from the comfort zone.

You gave a lot of units combiweapons either by giving them actual combiweapons or by giving them weapons with two firing modes, you created a melta weapon that has no melta, has a long range, fires as ordnance, shot by a leman russ variant in an army with only rhino tanks, you added some neophites to an army who has a very "brave" feel to it, and you gave them sniper rifles, not just sniper rifles but sniper rifles arguably better (much more flexible) than the guns that the emperor's best use... the list goes on.

This all depends on how much you're intrested in "winning over" other people, your army is probably better designed (gamewise) than anything I'd create, but it looks like people have a hard time "digesting" it. And it's something that even professionist designers do, we all remember the "astartes leman russ exterminator incident" don't we?