Rise and Fall of TSR (Remind you of anything?)

[Mr Mystery]

Couldn't agree less chum.

This sort of thing happens every now and again, and the same people burn their bras, call the end times, and still struggle to get that second nail in.

And the term your looking for is a vocal minority. GW enforcing their right to reveal really isn't a big shake...

[End of the World]

Couldn't agree less chum.

This sort of thing happens every now and again, and the same people burn their bras, call the end times, and still struggle to get that second nail in.

And the term your looking for is a vocal minority. GW enforcing their right to reveal really isn't a big shake...

I don't get the connection between radical feminist bra burning and being affected by a corporation's poor decision making. One is a response to a societal condition, the other is a response to a beloved hobby being consistently damaged by the people who were put in charge of it. As such, I don't really think this thing is cyclical so much as a legitimate response to completely reasonable concerns. I could be wrong but I'm not seeing any evidence why I am.

Just out of curiosity, what would GW have to do to anger you? They've already (Apparently) shut down a fan site that you enjoy (BOLS) and participate on, so I'm just wondering how many more toes one would have to step on before you consider it offensive. I'm not asking this to be critical of you as a stalwart GW fan but to try to understand the mind of the most hardcore fans.

As for whether the internet fans are a vocal minority or a majority I'd be willing to admit that we don't have any solid proof one way or the other. But then again, it seems rather absurd that the majority of the 20-something geek types who play the game wouldn't also be involved in at least some small part of the internet discussion about their hobby.

[RealGenius]

You missed the ludicrous bit in which TSR claimed copyright over the word "Dragons".

You mean like trying to sue for the use of "Space Marine"?

[Power Klawz]

I'm not asking this to be critical of you as a stalwart GW fan but to try to understand the mind of the most hardcore fans.

I think this is a bit of a misnomer. Being relatively unaffected by something doesn't generally place one in the column of "hardcore fan." In fact, it does the opposite.

A lot of what I'm hearing isn't so much slavish GW fanboyism as marginally disinterested acceptance.

"Oh, GW did some goofy stuff again? Those cads, when will they learn? Oh well, guess I'll go buy some more space marines since I like space marines."

If anything I'd use the term hardcore to describe people who are so emotionally invested in the product that they deem it necessary to crusade for wargaming justice by decrying the evils of capitalism as it relates to their beloved hobby.

[Caitsidhe]

I think that the history of TSR has lots of funny and educational lessons to teach. The only one that really matters, however, is that it is not a good idea to get into an adversarial relationship with your market consumers. Blaming and attacking the very people who promote and play your game is the height of idiocy.

[End of the World]

I think this is a bit of a misnomer. Being relatively unaffected by something doesn't generally place one in the column of "hardcore fan." In fact, it does the opposite.

A lot of what I'm hearing isn't so much slavish GW fanboyism as marginally disinterested acceptance.

"Oh, GW did some goofy stuff again? Those cads, when will they learn? Oh well, guess I'll go buy some more space marines since I like space marines."

If anything I'd use the term hardcore to describe people who are so emotionally invested in the product that they deem it necessary to crusade for wargaming justice by decrying the evils of capitalism as it relates to their beloved hobby.

And individual with 3000-odd posts on a forum concerning a single topic seems like a hardcore fan to me, but what do I know.

I'm not trying to say anyone's a fan boy, I just want to understand the "loyalist" position better.

[Power Klawz]

You'd be surprised the rate at which internet forum posts can accumulate for your average forumite. Hell I'm sure I've probably got like 10,000 or so posts on a cookware forum somewhere and I don't even own a dutch oven.

No but seriously, hardcore is a completely subjective adjective that can be used derisively or positively dependent on the connotations, and can be applied to almost anyone or anything if you skew it right. My post was mainly to illustrate this reality and attempt to engender a more meaningful discourse than "casuals vs. hardcores" which is probably the second worst argument to be had on the internet.

[Ghostofman]

While we're getting tied up in copyright/IP issues, the core article makes are good point. The antisocial behavior of TSR wasn't just about turning profits, it was about a business plan and management decisions that didn't hold up well in a changing market. TSR acted like jerks because the alternative was the expensive and risky proposition of taking a long hard look at thier operation and revising it, from the ground up in some cases, to handle the changing landscape.

Now we see GW pulling a lot of similar stunts (going after unrelated books and products for infringement, suppressing online retail sales, ect) . While well within their rights to do, the question becomes: Is this indicative of a larger problem within the business?

While I don't think the sky is falling, I do often get the feeling that GWs business practices still have one foot in the early 90's...

[Power Klawz]

I think its pretty obvious where GW's business shortcomings lie. They quite simply refuse to invest in appropriate infrastructure unless it becomes absolutely necessary, and even then they implement new services and products in the most boneheaded way possible.

They are basically trying to ride that gravy train until the wheels fall off, with the only glaringly strange facet being that, for the most part *COUGHFINECASTCOUGH* their main product actually DOES get better. Oddly enough this seems to be serving them well enough. They neglect everything you'd think would be necessary for a modern business to function (proper marketing, product transparency, customer interface, community building and brand recognition, competitive pricing, innovative information media solutions etc.) but still churn out some really nifty miniatures, and so people keep buying them.

All signs point to an OJ complex. you can literally murder white women, but hey! you're the JUUUICE!

[Wolfshade]

Actually, no. This takedown notice is covered under Title II of the DMCA, which just appends additional rules for online service providers, methods for issuing takedown notices, etc. to the existing US copyright laws. There's no limitation stating that it only applies to music, movies, etc.

Also, this isn't a matter of fair use or not; it's a matter of right of first reveal. If you posted an excerpt of an upcoming book without permission of the publisher before that book was available for sale, you can bet that the publisher would come after you with all legal tools at their disposal, because you shouldn't have access to the book yet. Once the book is out, sure, excerpt to your heart's content (so long as you don't end up reposting the entire book, of course).

It seems that this issue has been over looked.

Also, with all due respect BigRed, I am not sure that this is "40k General" perhaps the corporate section would be better.