Space Wolf 1500 point lists.

[Erazoender]

Alright so here are the two lists I wrote, and I am debating between the two. I think I'm leaning toward the first, but anyways, please give me your opinions.

Space Wolves 1500 Pt Roster: List 1

HQ: 270

Njal Stormcaller: 270 (With Wolf Guard Terminators)
- Njal
- Runic Terminator Armor

Elites: 473

Wolf Scout Pack: 85
- 5 Wolf Scouts
- Meltagun
- Loki*

Wolf Scout Pack: 85
- 5 Wolf Scouts
- Meltagun
- Hoskuld**

Wolf Guard Pack: 303
- Arngrim: Terminator Armor + Cyclone Missile Launcher
- Thor: Terminator Armor + Storm Shield + Chain Fist
- Leiknir: Terminator Armor + Storm Shield + Wolf Claw
- Ragi: Terminator Armor + 2x Wolf Claws
- Loki: Power Fist*
- Hoskuld: Power Fist**

Troops: 590

Grey Hunter Pack: 215
- 10 Grey Hunters
- Meltagun
- Meltagun
- Powerfist
- Rhino APC

Grey Hunter Pack: 215
- 10 Grey Hunters
- Meltagun
- Meltagun
- Powerfist
- Rhino APC

Grey Hunter Pack: 160
- 10 Grey Hunters
- Plasma Gun
- Plasma Gun

Heavy Support: 170

Long Fang Pack: 170
- 6 Long Fangs
- 3 Missile Launchers
- 2 Lascannons

Total: 1503

Space Wolves 1500 Pt Roster: List 2

HQ: 155

Wolf Guard Battle Leader: 155 (With Blood Claws)
- Runic Armor
- Storm Shield
- Frost Blade
- Wolftooth Necklace

Elites: 384

Wolf Guard Pack: 114 (One in each Troop Choice)
- 3 Wolf Guard
- Powerfist x3

Dreadnought: 165
- Venerable Dreadnought

Dreadnought: 105
- Dreadnought

Troops: 580

Grey Hunter Pack
- 9 Grey Hunters
- Meltagun
- Powerfist
- Rhino

Grey Hunter Pack
- 9 Grey Hunters
- Meltagun
- Powerfist
- Rhino

Blood Claw Pack
- 8 Blood Claws
- Flamer
- Power Fist
- Rhino

Fast Attack: 145

Switftclaw Biker Pack: 145
- 3 Bikers
- Meltagun
- Attackbike
-- Multi-Melta
- 4x Meltabombs

Heavy Support: 230

Vindicator: 115
- Vindicator

Vindicator: 115
- Vindicator


Total: 1494

[ChaosPhoenix]

It's a bit stupid, but I like the first one more. Why? Because thats 95% my own list and it served me well until now. But I still feel a little unsecure with Space Wolfs. I use flamers instead of meltas in the GH squads and 2 Landspeeder to deliver the AA-Firepower and my GHs are lead by Wolfguard with PFs.. but I've no Wolfguards in my scouts .
So I don't know if that helps but at least someone had th same (good or stupid?) idea like you

Edit: I'm talking about the first list. I just realised, you are not able to know how I voted, if more than one person votes

[Chumbalaya]

Too bad neither isn't an option...

I'd lean towards list 1 as it has less useless units. The Wolf Scouts need cutting and you only have 2 vehicles. No appreciable anti-tank at range or up close and Njal doesn't fit at all.

List 2 has more anti-tank firepower, but it's got the hilariously terrible Swiftclaws, underperforming BCs, and Vindicators (pie plate + CC army = hit your own guys).

Both need work.

[Erazoender]

I'm aware of that, but that's just what I have to work with.

I haven't been able to find a stupid-competitive list without Thunderwolf Calvary, so I just gave up on trying to make a competitive list.

And wait, what do you mean no Anti-Tank at range or up close?

Range:

5 Missiles
2 Lascannons
(Anti-Light Vehicles) Njal

Up Close:

6 Meltaguns
Chainfist
Powerfists

[Chumbalaya]

2 lascannons and 3 missiles concentrated in a unit where every casualty is a heavy weapon. Meltas in your only (AV11) vehicles. Chainfist is walking. I wouldn't consider that very good.

You can be competitive without Thunderwolves, but you end up with an army that may as well be vanilla.

[Confuddled]

Looking at individual components of both lists….

1) Njal’s just too darn expensive for 1500. It doesn’t help that he only really starts to shine come mid-game. Maybe in a 1750-1850 game, but at 1500, you really want to concentrate on the other elements in your list.


2) Wolf Scouts are good at what they do – you certainly get what you pay for.
Trouble is:
a) WS/BS4 comes at a price - they’re NOT troop choices. Half the attraction of outflanking Marine scouts is the fact that they can actually sneak in and hold unattended objectives. 5 Wolf Scouts camped on an empty objective contribute exactly NOTHING to the final tally.

b) They’re only really good at killing SOFT static units, be it a lone 5-man combat squad or a Basilisk parked behind a building.

c) They’re not actually all that much of a deterrent.
- If he’s playing a mobile and/or aggressive army, the Scouts are pretty much wasted, since he’s going to be gunning for you!
- If he’s playing a relatively static gun-line, Wolf Scouts are only a factor come mid/late game. While waiting for the Scouts to show up, the other guy’s static units WILL get at least 1 round of shooting off – probably 2, possibly 3, maybe even 4 if he’s lucky (or if he’s got an Officer of the Fleet in play)!


3) Long Fangs can pump out a very respectable amount of shooting. Pity they’re not Relentless. Trouble is:
a) 1 game out of 3, they’re not shooting for at least 1 round. Maybe 2 if they’re trying to get into a nice piece of area/difficult terrain 8” in from the table edge.

b) They’re really cheap, but:
- Once they take a couple of casualties, their effectiveness drops exponentially.
- They’re also horribly fragile - unless you’re able to deploy them in a nice patch of cover (4+ cover save or better), odds are they’re not going to survive past turn 3.
- It doesn’t help that you’ve got all your long-range anti-tank concentrated in a single squad - once they’re down, my vehicles are going to be a LOT safer.


4) Venerable Dreadnoughts just aren’t that effective – for 60 points less, you might as well stick with a regular Dreadnought.
a) The Venerable re-roll is nice and all, but it doesn’t change the fact that they’re still only (!) AV12.

b) WS5 is kinda irrelevant for Wolf Dreads –
- Offensively, you’ve got the Wolftooth Necklace for your attacks.
- Defensively, everyone is hitting you on 3s or 4s anyway.

c) BS5 is nice and all, but its still only a single dreadnought with one long gun.


5) Swiftclaws are…heh…well, I’d say that they’re best used as a turbo-boosting delivery system for a Wolf combat HQ (Lord or Battle Leader) or a power-fist-toting Wolf Guard.
Trouble is, for that, you’d pretty much need a BIG squad –

a) If you’re running a small squad (ie 3 guys and an attack bike), you don’t have much resilience OR hitting power – once you lose a model, the squad just ain’t scary any longer. No respect, really.
b) With a big squad, you can afford to take a few risks, be it from enemy shooting or dangerous terrain tests (one of the biggest advantages of bikes over cavalry is the ability to move through difficult terrain with no penalty beyond the odd dangerous-terrain test), and WS3 or no WS3, no one can afford to ignore 6 Marine bikers with a power fist one turn away. He WILL lose something when they hit.

Granted, the real question is whether or not the bikers can actually hit anything, but hey, there’s a reason why Swiftclaws are generally considered second-tier (or even third!) in the codex…

And yes, the multi-melta upgrade just ain’t worth it – not at BS3. Biggest advantage of taking an attack bike? The fact that you’re effectively paying 5 extra points for a W2 A2 biker whom you can allocate the odd S7 AP2 wound to.

[Confuddled]

So, what to do?

Go with option (C) – a combination of both lists.

Basically, a (relatively!) cheap hitty Battle Leader on a bike, 4 packs of Grey Hunters (10 men) in Rhinos, a single squad of mixed Wolf Guard in a pod and a pair of regular Dreads.

In other words:

Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Frost Blade, Runic Armour, melta bombs, bike
10 Grey Hunters, 2 meltas, Wolf Standard, power weapon, Rhino
10 Grey Hunters, 2 meltas, Wolf Standard, power weapon, Rhino
10 Grey Hunters, 2 plasma guns, Rhino
10 Grey Hunters, 2 plasma guns, Rhino
Dreadnought, Wolftooth Necklace
Dreadnought, Wolftooth Necklace

Comes to about 1450 points, leaving you with another 50+ points to spend on random stuff – Saga of the Warrior Born for the Battle Leader, more Wolf Standards or power weapons or whatever else catches you fancy…

1) Battle Leader actually costs more than the Swiftclaws, but:
a) You need a HQ anyway. And at least you’ve got one other fast (if expensive) unit to back up the Terminators in a hurry.
b) He’ll probably do more damage than the Swiftclaws, especially against other Marine units.
c) He’s easier to hide, and more mobile to boot (gotta love Skiller Rider when it comes to taking Dangerous Terrain tests with confidence!)
Depending on the opponent and mission, he could either cower in a corner behind a Rhino or just tear down the table at top speed and draw as much enemy fire as possible before dying (in)gloriously.

The alternative, of course, would be a budget Rune Priest in Terminator Armour (so you can use the Njal model!) – less than half the price, and in any non-Annihilation mission, you can just park him off to one corner (preferably in cover) and let him draw fire.


2) Wolf Guard do pretty much the same thing as Wolf Scouts. They cost a heck of a lot more, but:
a) They’re also a darn sight more durable.

b) You pick where you deploy.

c) They’re actually MORE of a deterrent to static units, since the other guy is faced with a choice. Either he:
– deploys his static guns on the table and risk being nuked by the Wolf Guard, OR;
- keeps his static guns in reserve, in which case he runs the risk of them showing up too late to do any good.

d) With a cyclone, a chainfist and 3+combi-meltas, you’ve got a wide range of engagement options – you can either jump in for a kamikaze strike on that one key unit, or you can drop in a little further back and off to one flank or the other, or have the pod drop empty and walk forward… its up to you, really.


3) Grey Hunters basically work together in teams – exact deployment depends on opponent


4) Dreadnoughts move up in company with the Rhinos and block and/or support as needed.


Drop a pack of Hunters for “flavour” units if you will (Bloodclaws, Wolves, Skyclaws, a Lone Wolf or two… whatever rocks your boat, really…)

[Erazoender]

Alright, here's a question for all you guys;

In 1500 points, what's "the best" (I know, I'm no fool saying "MAKE ME THE BEST LIST") in your opinion, that you've had the most success with. What I'm aiming for is trying to make a list that is tough to beat, but has that wolfy flavor to it. I'm having trouble making a list that is a healthy balance between the two in 1500 point games. The easiest solution is a Special Character... and I'm really quite fond of Psykers.

If I WOULD run a combat hero, I would certainly run the Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with a Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, and Saga of the Warrior Born.

[Confuddled]

Well, the question that begs asking is:

“What constitutes a “Wolfy” flavour to you?”



Apart from the obvious (four-legged Wolves of various flavours and sizes), some key differences imho would be:

1) Access to special weapons with smaller squads (Razorbacks might as well be tailor-made for Grey Hunters).


2) The Wolf Standard


3) Wolf Guard as a jack-of-all-trades unit that is used to reinforce your other squads, deliver a heavy punch and/or serve as a bodyguard for the HQ.

So take those as the core of your list.

Also, I'm working on the assumption that you want a take-all-comers army, as opposed to some form of one-trick pony.


As for Njal, eh..he's nifty enough, but:
1) While he’s a great support character, the high point cost stings at this point level. By the time you’re done paying for Njal and his lap dogs, there won’t be all that much left for him to support.

(Great way to get an army painted up fast, though…)


2) His utility is also very subjective, mostly hinging on the fact that he needs to be able to see an enemy unit before his Tempest thingy really kicks in –

a) If you’re in range, so is the enemy.

b) Unless you’re playing on a featureless board, there’s a limit to just how far can you see when you’re a 2” tall model.



Suggestion?

(seeing as how you like pyskers AND Njal is a pretty sweet model….)

Rune Priest, Chooser, Terminator Armour
Probably Living Lightning and Tempest’ Wrath –
Lightning is self-explanatory.

Tempest’ Wrath, because its the ability with the best odds of stopping the usual Turn 5 Skimmer Bum Rush. Also useful for slowing down all those pesky fast units buzzing around your Rune Priest, helping compensate for your relative lack of anti-skimmer guns
...


Pack 1 – 5 Grey Hunters, melta gun, Razorback
Pack 2 – 5 Grey Hunters, melta gun, Razorback
Pack 3 – 5 Grey Hunters, flamer, Razorback, t/l lascannon
Pack 4 – 10 Grey Hunters, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, power weapon, 2 plasma guns


10 Wolf Guard –
Terminator, combi-melta (drop pod)
Terminator, combi-melta, chain fist (drop pod)
Terminator, cyclone (drop pod)
Terminator, cyclone launcher, wolf claw (drop pod)
Wolf Guard, combi-melta, pistol (drop pod)
Wolf Guard, combi-melta, ccw (drop pod)
Wolf Guard, power weapon (joins pack 1)
Wolf Guard, power weapon (joins pack 2)
Wolf Guard, combi-flamer (joins pack 3)
Terminator, chain fist (joins pack 4)


Dreadnought, assault cannon/ccw, Wolftooth necklace

Dreadnought, assault cannon/ccw, Wolftooth necklace


Land Speeder, multi-melta

Land Speeder, multi-melta

Pretty much the same thing, really, except you trim back on the Grey Hunters and bring a few more specialists to the table.


1) Packs 1 and 2 move up alone or together – your call, really.

Don’t be shy to shuffle things around if you want (if, for instance, you actually have more guns than the other guy – feel free to stand back and pound him until he’s forced to get into charge range.



2) Dreads shuffle up behind/around the Razorbacks. Wolftooth necklaces compensate for the fact that they’re only(!!) WS4.



3) Pack 4 trundles up in company with the Dreads – they’re there to backstop Packs 1 and 2. Or they could just camp, depending on opponent.



4) Pack 3 covers your home base – 2 flamers should be more than enough to sort out any of the usual lightly-armoured infiltrators/outflankers that players seem to love. Razorback keeps ‘em safe from harm. Feel free to deploy their attached Razorback off to one side or the other OR keep them in the Razorback, depending.



5) Wolf Guard terminators either ride a pod down or send the pod down and walk on the table (depending on mission and opponent) – they work fine as kamikaze troops, bait units and/or mobile fire support. Kinda like Long Fangs, only:
a) Twice as expensive
b) More than twice as durable
c) Able to move and fire
d) More than capable of looking after themselves in close combat.



6) Rune Priest either hangs with:
a) Pack 3, where he contributes an extra warm body, beefs ‘em up in close combat and gives them an extra long-range punch, or:
b) Pack 4. Same thing, except they need the warm body/close-combat boost a lot less.
c) Off by his own in a nice bunker or water tower or something.

Wolf Guard terminators either ride a pod down or send the pod down and walk on the table (depending on mission and opponent) – they work fine as kamikaze troops, bait units and/or mobile fire support.

Kinda like Long Fangs, only:
a) Twice as expensive
b) More than twice as durable
c) Able to move and fire
d) More than capable of looking after themselves in close combat.



Feel free to switch things around depending on the opponent, deployment style and mission.

[Wanderingroue]

one thing i would say is: if you gonna run grey hunters without wolf guard in them, then for heavens sake take somthing with the saga of majesty.. ld 8 really dont cut it for space marines.