Harry and Hastings Chime in on the Future of Warhammer

[Bigred]

Now here is one of the most interesting exchanges I've read in a long time regarding the state of Warhammer Fantasy and its future. Al from a couple of old stalwarts and pillars of the community, Harry and 79Hastings69 [URL="http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?372124-Release-schedule-rumours-2-0/page24"]via Warseer:[/URL]

The thing to take away from conversations such as this aren't the details, but the tone. These are some of the most dyed in the wool followers (and folks in the know) and enthusiasts of the game having a conversation about their favorite and cherished game. But the tone is more one of family members paying a bedside farewell to a dying loved one...

See if you pick up on that.

Harry

I have faith in the future... and I will try to tell you why.
I love Warhammer ... I have loved it since 1st Edition and I have loved it through each edition. I have no doubt I will continue to love it in 9th Edition and beyond ... and I will tell you why.
None of these editions have been perfect ... 1st Edition certainly wasn't ... what I fell in love with was the endevour. To try and produce a Mass Combat fantasy game. Games developers have spent the next three decades trying to make it better ... trying to produce the BEST mass combat fantasy game they can ... and whilst we could argue the toss all day about which edition was best and why ... the fact is ... they were all great ... none were perfect, each had strengths and weaknesses but at any given point in time you could probably argue that Warhammer was the best mass combat fantasy wargame out there. Why? Because there were folks who loved the game as much as I did with that endevour.

With each edition, with each army book, with Warhammer Fantasy Role-Playing Game, with each Black Libary novel, with each special character, with each new miniature release the background has got richer and deeper until it has become an unmatched fantasy setting in which to build armies and fight mass fantasy battles. Why? Because there were folks that loved the game as much as do writing all this stuff and making the miniatures.

None of this has changed. There are still a bunch of folks at Games Workshop, folks in the studio, games developers who love the game as much as I do. There is still the same endevour ... to write and produce the BEST mass combat fantasy wargame out there.
Will it have strengths and weaknesses? ... Yes ... just like every other edition. Will it still be the best game out there? ... Yes ... because nothing can take all of that rich background away...all they can do is add to it.

At the end of the day ...
If you don't like the rules ... you can play any edition you liked.
If you don't like the changes to the timeline you can set your battles in any period of warhammer history you like.
If you don't like mixed armies you can pick your army from one race.
If you want to mix armies and develop the narrative to explain it ... you can.
Whatever you choose Warhammer will probably be the best mass combat fantasy wargame out there.
I imagine I will enjoy getting my head around 9th edition, building armies for 9th edition and playing games just as much as I have for every other edition.

Oh .. yes ... BRING IT ON!

Lord Solar Plexus

There are some popular misconceptions here. A new edition is not good or welcome because at the end of the day you can opt not to play it. The assumption that one can just play any edition he likes is also mostly a platitude. Perhaps, if you're playing alone. Otherwise you need to convince at least one other person to play an unsupported game. If you want to play against certain established army builds instead of a blend, you cannot just decide to. Therefore, all these supposed options are more or less a sham.
...
1. A new edition is not good because one can play something else: 4th D&D is not good because people play 3.5.
2. You cannot just play any edition you like unless you convince at least one person: With D&D 3.5, that condition was fulfilled - for some. With all other editions of D&D, it was not but people keep suggesting to those who prefer 4th to "just" play it as if nothing happened. With almost all editions of WF, all systems, it is not common either. Yes, there is the Eastern Fringe, but nobody here would find the strength or time to play 2nd ed. 40k on a regular basis. There's a strong pull to move along with the majority and not "just" do what you want.
3. If the new One Rulebook allows an alliance I do not like, say, a HPA/Great Cannon/Ironblasters with WoC, I cannot possibly simply chose not to play it when the majority of opponents takes it and sees no issue with it. I can make up my mind for my own army, not for someone else's, and I'm not going to coerce people into some kind of comp even if I was able to. That's bad style.
...
If you only have one buddy, and he wants to play the new edition and you want to play the old, then that's highly problematic and not solved by "shrug, just play what you want". The suggestion implies everyone's going to "just" follow your or my lead. If you go to tournaments, tough luck. If you're in a group of 3-4 and only one quits because he doesn't like the mishmash, that's already a huge loss.

79Hastings69

I agree too to an extent. The game however should have fun at its very core, mixed list would be fun for friendly play, but without very strict rules tournament play could see some very imbalanced lists/builds (I know people who'd excel at making such lists).

I guess it's going to come down to how it (mixed armies) is managed, the biggest part of me thinks quite loosely so that GW have a wider market to push WFB kits on to.

I have to say Harry's post is very upbeat, myself I simply see it as a way for GW to sell more stuff (I'm not saying that's a bad thing it's a business after all), my feeling sadly toward GW are that if they are prepared to sell something like finecrap to customers just in the name of £ then I no longer believe that they have their customers opinions in mind at all so anything could happen.

If I were still interested in WFB I think I'd enjoy making a narrative driven force that could be used on the tabletop but as competitive play doesn't interest me I'm only looking from one side.

Many moons ago I started a mousillon themed vc army, some rules were transferable some weren't, I think a less rigid army building list could make such themed armies more popular and fun to field.

I think the points made in LSPs last post are very valid.

Harry

You know me ... hope for the best ... prepare for the worst.

Here's the thing. you are talking about GW as a company.
Games Workshop as a company is not re-writing warhammer. Individuals are.
Individuals who have who's focus is writing the best rules they can. Individuals who love and care about this game as much as I do.
Sure there may be the odd bit of pressure to choose options that encourage sales ... but like any design Brief ... good designers ... (in this case games designers) are not restricted by a design brief ... they exceed all expectations whilst meeting the brief to the point that the original brief seems to have little relevance to the final design.
Also you don't know what else is in a brief. Can't imagine Alan Merrett not suggesting they bugger about with the IP at their peril for example.
Also it pre-supposes that the folks making the final decisions are even shoving their oar in that much at this stage. They may ave given the games developers a blank piece of paper and said 'have at it'. If you were starting from scratch what would you do. They may be waiting to see what they come back with before asking the question 'if we changed this would we sell more minis'.

I honestly think everyone involved in this right now will be doing so with the best of intentions and the highest aspirations for the best ever Warhammer.
After all that is what is ultimately going to see the most new editions and thus the most fantasy miniatures going forward.
It would take a complete @rse to think some short sighted, ham fisted, rules created to sell minis were going to be a good idea over and above this aim.

My hope for the future is based on common sense rather than blind optimism.

Having said that common sense has been in short supply at times.

This entire conversation stems from the rumor curculaitng by those in the know regarding WFB 9th:

Harry:

.... significant changes to the rules, the timeline and the approach to armybooks.

In particular the rumors that 9th could see a "full reboot" that invalidates all existing Army Books, and then the entire range of 15+ WFB army books gets shrunk down to a handful (say about 4) "Compendiums" that group similar armies.

This would have the business effect of shrinking WFB's overall footprint and freeing up Games Workshop development resources, allowing the entire cycle of WFB army compendiums to be updated on a shorter timescale.

Warseer's Earlybird 6-27-2013

V9 Army books :

Ancient Kingdoms : Lizardmen/High Elves/Wood Elves/Dwarves/Tomb Kings
Servants of Dark Gods : Warriors of Chaos/Daemons of Chaos/Beastmen/Skaven/Dark Elves
Old Word Denizens : The Empire/Bretonnia/Orcs and Goblins/Ogre Kingdoms/Vampire Counts

[Denzark]

Respectfully, I think 'bedside fairwell to a dying loved one' is a trifle histrionic interpretation of this.

[Bigred]

Oh, I don't think WFB is going anywhere,

But the trepidation over a massive edition reboot to consolidate the game is unmistakable.

8th could well be the last "full - grand" edition of the game.

[Denzark]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'grand' edition? After all, they haven't got rid of LoTR rubbish yet, and we know what happens to specialist games, so can't see WFB in a 'lesser' form.

[Wildeybeast]

This entire conversation stems from the rumor curculaitng by those in the know regarding WFB 9th:

Harry:

In particular the rumors that 9th could see a "full reboot" that invalidates all existing Army Books, and then the entire range of 15+ WFB army books gets shrunk down to a handful (say about 4) "Compendiums" that group similar armies.

This would have the business effect of shrinking WFB's overall footprint and freeing up Games Workshop development resources, allowing the entire cycle of WFB army compendiums to be updated on a shorter timescale.

I can't see this ever happening. It would cost them money, not make more. I can see a rules overhaul so big it requires a Ravening Hordes style booklet, but not merging army books. If it does, that's they day my armies go in the bin.

[Lexington]

A big shake-up like this is long overdue, rules-wise. I'd have more fears for Fantasy's background, given the recent involvement of certain developers, but that world's been stagnantly crappy for so long that I can't imagine it getting worse. Definitely curious to see what happens.

[BoW Ben]

I'm just glad to see they are still thinking about Warhammer Fantasy. The idea of Compendiums over Army Books is certainly an interesting one and you could group together a few of the factions quite easily for different source books. Bit like The Hobbit/LotR at the moment I guess.

I really like 8th edition and have had a lot more fun with it than the new 40k but I do agree that the fluff needs a massive push. It has been doing practically nothing for years and they even backpedaled on a lot of stuff.

[harveydent]

it seems plausible that they might create a 9th edition that is a quick-and-easy version of the game. all rulebooks rolled together into one or two volumes, with emphasis placed on basic units for the sake of having a 'learning edition' focusing on modeling and painting. i mean, the guy actually says 'you can play whatever edition you want,' and that leads me to believe that they're ok with two versions of the game being in circulation simultaneously. that's essentially what we have already in 40k - a tournament version and a non-tournament version. they do the same thing with Magic the Gathering. they have a constructed format and a limited, learner's format (draft). the limited format was originally begun so that players could simulate the 'beginner's experience,' but it ended up becoming this massive, mainstream competitive format.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm still far from convinced about the supposed big shake up.


Game works fine as is, and is getting a good amount of attention. From a sales perspective, ditching army books just doesn't seem to make sense. Why sell four books, when you could sell one for each army. Allows a longer development period for each army as well.

Colour me confused.

[Bitrider]

I'm still far from convinced about the supposed big shake up.


Game works fine as is, and is getting a good amount of attention. From a sales perspective, ditching army books just doesn't seem to make sense. Why sell four books, when you could sell one for each army. Allows a longer development period for each army as well.

Colour me confused.

..and done. You are welcome.