Do you play with special characters?

[Learn2Eel]

I agree, but if it was properly costed than it would be a good model. The fact that it tends to do as much as it does for so little is why I define it broken instead of good. Let's put it this way. What other model in the game can deal as much damage as the doom at it's cost.

None, at least, not semi-regularly like the Doom can. I still don't think it is "broken" though.

[DarkLink]

It's broken due to it"s double aura effect

No it's not. And what do you mean double aura? You mean that it happens in both shooting phases? Just move outside of 6" and it won't get anything in your turn. Rocket science, I know, but turns out that works pretty well.

To not take any damage from the 3d6 rolling which is 3-18 you need to roll average. Like 3,3,4 or 6,1,3 or 5,4,1, etc even with leadership 10 you need to roll average or below average. I can see you saying only 2d6 it's not a problem, but 3d6 is.

Oh, hey, almost half the time the Doom does nothing, and even when it does something it's still only a 6" range and odds are it's only 2-3 wounds. Yeah, that's totally broken. I don't see how anyone could possibly survive one round of that hitting 2, maybe 3 units.

If rolling under 10 on a 3d6 is sooooo easy. Than why people complain about how annoying a certain 15 point piece of gear a Farseer has. All I hear is I can't cast crap or models dying to a 15 piece of wargear. Yet when a doom forces checks within 6" of it it's not bad and easy to make. No it's not.

Red herring. Runes of Warding is quite irrelevant. Runes has a greater than 50% chance of completely negating the only thing that makes most Librarians type HQs useful, anywhere on the board, for 15pts that you can hide in a transport. Doom has an extremely short range, is highly exposed, and has a solid chance of not doing anything except make opponents like you panic. The fact that both rely on 3d6 ld tests is about the only thing that's similar between the two.

Than how many races are even leadership 10. The average leadership for most armies with character up grades are usually 9 while you get as low as 2 with some models, but 7 is your typical lowest.

Most armies are Ld 8 or 9, and most of the Ld 8 armies have lots of cheap troops so they don't care that much if they lose a couple guys.

Yes firedragons can toast a doom, or a devestator squad etc. The problem with your logic is you asumming the nid player has no range attacks, like no 12 shot strength 6 attacks, no 6 strength 8 attacks from hive guard, etc. I guarantee any competant nid player would target such threat squads. Fire dragons in a wave serpent have to disembark to fire at the doom. Once they done so the nid army can open up and kill them now.

Did you really misunderstand or misrepresent my statement such that you actually thought I claimed that Fire Dragons instantly negated the Doom? I've said like four times that the Doom is good, just not broken. Fire Dragons came up because they're one of the only ways for Eldar, a very old and outdated codex, to reliably kill the Doom, but keep in mind that mech Eldar could also just fly away outside of its range until they had a chance to effectively deal with it, or hit it with their str 6 spam and force saves and kill it.

Let me put it this way, so you can understand a bit more.

I'm glad you think everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends that way.

All armies, but daemons and a few other models you can say weapon x can kill model y really easy. Daemons is an exception since they can save against most things in 40k. I can say bolters can easily kill daemonettes for example, that is not true. It is as trueas the dice dictates. Due to rolling the damonettes can easily laugh at bolter shots as it bounces off them, or get slaughtered by the hail of bullets.

Daemons is an example of an army if you roll good it does good. If you roll bad it does bad.

If I have a Tau strength 5 ap 5 weapon I can say I can easily kill gaunts due to wounding on 2s and they can't save unless they get a cover save. Next I have pathfinders which denies cover, so tau can easily kill models with a +5 save. No matter what the nid player does he can't roll to ulter the outcome of them dying. Unless he gives them fnp via endurance or catylist.

Not entirely sure what you're rambling about, but whatever.

ith the doom you have a +3 invulnerable save. Meaning it ain't dying unless the nid player fails it's save. If player x is a bad roller than doom dies easy. If player y is known to roll above average a lot than you can take awhile to kill it.

Huh, I never would have guessed that if my opponent rolled really well, I might have trouble beating him. Guess what. "My opponent rolled really well" does not make whatever unit(s) he took broken. It just means he rolled really well. You can win with terrible armies if you get lucky enough, and that certainly doesn't make those armies broken.

Everytime I seen the doom used. Majority of the time it makes back it's points and more. Yes I seen it die to a lucky strength 8 hit or scatter off the board. However if I can say 8 out of 10 games it has earned back it's points than bing it's a good model. Hmmm can't do anything against it and get's to nuke surronding models before I can actually do anything, and shoot a pie plate as well. The doom.

Nidz deserve a few good units. Certainly doesn't make it broken.

It's almost like saying runes of witnessing isn't broken, or Jaws of the warp wolf, or a vindicator turbo round vs vehicles, or half the Necron book, man the Necrons.

grey Knights are not broken due to the really high cost of what they put out. Even cortez razorback spam is not broken. However my question to all marine players is this, or questions.

1. Can marines take assault cannons with infantry or assault marines
2. Assault Cannon= 30-40 points, Psycannon only 10 points
3. Can marines even take 2-4 assault cannons in their squads
4. Wait psycannons or strength 7 not 6
5. Assault cannons are heavy always while psycannons can be assault 2, so you can assault with a heavy weapon.

Now I think a weapon that is 1/3 the cost of what other marines pay for a similiar type of weapon is broken with the added bonus of higher strength, squads can have it, and giving it an assault option.

I put the doom in the broken category due to it's cheap and can aura effect twice. It's a distraction which allows tervigons, trygons, and tyrants to go unmolested due to the non nid playes using possible anti monster weapons to kill a doom.

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

You sound like a guy I played in a team tournament where my partner had the Doom. It dropped in and killed a few guys, and they freaked out and stopped playing smart and lost. Then they whined about us taking special character, even though the Doom only actually killed like five Fire Warriors and a couple of Drones.

When something is broken, that means it's extremely difficult to deal with effectively. A Flying Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch Iron Arm, Endurance, and Invisibility can potentially get to T9 (+1T chaos gift) with a 2+ cover save, reroll 1's to save, with It Will Not Die, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, and WS1 againt it in assault. That's kind of broken, if your opponent manages to get lucky enough to get all of those psychic powers. Only Eldar and Space Wolves can really handle that by blocking the psychic powers, but everyone else has to pray that it fails all its Grounding checks, its 5++ with reroll 1's, 5+ FNP, and never makes It Will Not Die.

There are plenty of means of dealing with the Doom. Grey Knights and Tau, both common armies now that everyone's on the Tau bandwagon, can handle Deepstrikers pretty well. All armies have access to fortifications with Interceptor, giving you some more chances to kill it. SMs have Null Zone to make it reroll those Invulnerable saves, and can hide in transports to keep safe. Orks can bury it in attacks, and who cares if they lose a couple Boys. Guard can bury it in lasgun shots, and just like Orks who cares if you lose a few guardsmen. Dark Eldar excel at killing infantry, and have str 8 weapons to spare. Necrons have their own tools to deal with it.

So while the Doom is a good unit, pretty much every army in the game has at least one way of killing the Doom. That immediately removes it from the "broken" category.


By the way, you might want to use a browser with spellcheck. And work on the difference between 'it's' and 'its'. Grammar, too. Just saying.

[chicop76]

No it's not. And what do you mean double aura? You mean that it happens in both shooting phases? Just move outside of 6" and it won't get anything in your turn. Rocket science, I know, but turns out that works pretty well.



Oh, hey, almost half the time the Doom does nothing, and even when it does something it's still only a 6" range and odds are it's only 2-3 wounds. Yeah, that's totally broken. I don't see how anyone could possibly survive one round of that hitting 2, maybe 3 units.



Red herring. Runes of Warding is quite irrelevant. Runes has a greater than 50% chance of completely negating the only thing that makes most Librarians type HQs useful, anywhere on the board, for 15pts that you can hide in a transport. Doom has an extremely short range, is highly exposed, and has a solid chance of not doing anything except make opponents like you panic. The fact that both rely on 3d6 ld tests is about the only thing that's similar between the two.



Most armies are Ld 8 or 9, and most of the Ld 8 armies have lots of cheap troops so they don't care that much if they lose a couple guys.



Did you really misunderstand or misrepresent my statement such that you actually thought I claimed that Fire Dragons instantly negated the Doom? I've said like four times that the Doom is good, just not broken. Fire Dragons came up because they're one of the only ways for Eldar, a very old and outdated codex, to reliably kill the Doom, but keep in mind that mech Eldar could also just fly away outside of its range until they had a chance to effectively deal with it, or hit it with their str 6 spam and force saves and kill it.



I'm glad you think everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends that way.



Not entirely sure what you're rambling about, but whatever.




Huh, I never would have guessed that if my opponent rolled really well, I might have trouble beating him. Guess what. "My opponent rolled really well" does not make whatever unit(s) he took broken. It just means he rolled really well. You can win with terrible armies if you get lucky enough, and that certainly doesn't make those armies broken.




Nidz deserve a few good units. Certainly doesn't make it broken.





Would you like some cheese with that whine?

You sound like a guy I played in a team tournament where my partner had the Doom. It dropped in and killed a few guys, and they freaked out and stopped playing smart and lost. Then they whined about us taking special character, even though the Doom only actually killed like five Fire Warriors and a couple of Drones.

When something is broken, that means it's extremely difficult to deal with effectively. A Flying Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch Iron Arm, Endurance, and Invisibility can potentially get to T9 (+1T chaos gift) with a 2+ cover save, reroll 1's to save, with It Will Not Die, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, and WS1 againt it in assault. That's kind of broken, if your opponent manages to get lucky enough to get all of those psychic powers. Only Eldar and Space Wolves can really handle that by blocking the psychic powers, but everyone else has to pray that it fails all its Grounding checks, its 5++ with reroll 1's, 5+ FNP, and never makes It Will Not Die.

There are plenty of means of dealing with the Doom. Grey Knights and Tau, both common armies now that everyone's on the Tau bandwagon, can handle Deepstrikers pretty well. All armies have access to fortifications with Interceptor, giving you some more chances to kill it. SMs have Null Zone to make it reroll those Invulnerable saves, and can hide in transports to keep safe. Orks can bury it in attacks, and who cares if they lose a couple Boys. Guard can bury it in lasgun shots, and just like Orks who cares if you lose a few guardsmen. Dark Eldar excel at killing infantry, and have str 8 weapons to spare. Necrons have their own tools to deal with it.

So while the Doom is a good unit, pretty much every army in the game has at least one way of killing the Doom. That immediately removes it from the "broken" category.


By the way, you might want to use a browser with spellcheck. And work on the difference between 'it's' and 'its'. Grammar, too. Just saying.

I didn't call anyone stupid. If you think you are it's something you believe. Not going to change your mind on how smart you think you are. I embrace everyone equally.

How is like a 400 point random powered model broken. I easily dealt with that. The differance between the doom and I hope to get iron arm and endurance, feel no pain 4+, with +1 wound and it shall not die. Is one I know exactlly what I am getting and the other can die to a double 1 on the warpstorm table. Heck that 400 point model can die as soon as it hit the shooting phase. Actually The Storm Abates can't really kill it, but Punised by the Gods can. Save me the trouble with dealing with it if it is punished by the gods lol.

If you think broken is spending about 1/4 of your army cost into one model that if you roll real lucky get all the things you said it's getting. It more than likely die to a 3 on the war storm table before you get all of that wishing.

Back to reality with the broken low costed doom which can be used even in a 500 point game.

1. You can control somewhat wher you land. That is something you are over looking. Even if you drift on an average of 7" the po size and the 6" disembark can put you on average where you want. Not even throwing in you hit on target 1/3 of the time. Meaning most of the time you can place the Doom where ever you like.

2. Keeping in mind the fact the doom gets a large blast and a 6" aura attack you are taking some loses. In a pinch instead of shooting you can decided to run for more disruption. Lol.

3. So you saying you will move your heavy weapon squads out of the 6" and now can only snap fire. Brillant! I caused you to take a disadvantage due to a cheap model. Also keep in mind in some cases you simply can't move out of the area effect. Either you moving up towards my nids, bunching up closer together for some biovore love. Moving out of the way of the doom actually helps the nid player lol. It's called tactics. If I am forcing you to move in a worst postion to get out of the doom effect awesome.

4. Like I said before I doubt the Doom is the only deep striking model. Keeping that in mind you may be blocked off from even moving out of 6". You can't go off the table to get out of the aura.

Also with your example how are you getting +1 toughness. Just asking. Also invisibility is two charges by the way which leaves one for iron arm or endurance. I seriously doubt you can get all that. Again it's not broken due to dumb luck on a random table and dishing out almost 400 points into a huge point sink.

If you think that Tzeentch Prince is broken than the Doom is beyond broken lol.

When a person decides to use name calling to get his point across. It usually means that you know I am right and is upset that you can't prove otherwise.

For the record. I never said the Doom is unstopable. @Darklink yes there are ways you can handle the Doom, but you are seriously down playing the model. The model works best with other modes supporting it. Again it's low cost is what makes it broken. Anything that can easily earn back it's points and cause good people like Darklink to be upset to me is the definition of a broken model. Not only is it good in game, but also causes meltdows out of game as well.

[daboarder]

For the record. I never said the Doom is unstopable. @Darklink yes there are ways you can handle the Doom, but you are seriously down playing the model. The model works best with other modes supporting it. Again it's low cost is what makes it broken. Anything that can easily earn back it's points and cause good people like Darklink to be upset to me is the definition of a broken model. Not only is it good in game, but also causes meltdows out of game as well.

If you don't think its unstoppable stop acting like a whiny brat.

The DoM is far from broken, he doesn't win games, he occasionally kills a few models if you want to argue that the outlier make the model instead of the averages (and on average the DoM kills a couple of models before it dies to instagib) then anything can be called broken, I mean those Firedragons for instance are just nuts, theres very little way of stopping them flying up in a transport and frying any unit with 10 meltaguns OMG WTF BBQ BROKEN!!!!

[chicop76]

If you don't think its unstoppable stop acting like a whiny brat.

The DoM is far from broken, he doesn't win games, he occasionally kills a few models if you want to argue that the outlier make the model instead of the averages (and on average the DoM kills a couple of models before it dies to instagib) then anything can be called broken, I mean those Firedragons for instance are just nuts, theres very little way of stopping them flying up in a transport and frying any unit with 10 meltaguns OMG WTF BBQ BROKEN!!!!

Only people who are acting like brats are people who do not know how to debate. I never said side a was wrong. I just said why I think Doom is broken. Side A if they choose to insult rather than prove my point is invalid is up to them.

The Doom has won games. Not all of them no, but it has. What makes it annoying is that x unit can be locked in combat with y nid. On top of combat you have to deal with the doom attacking you while you in combat, but not in combat. What other model does that. It can attack you from range while you locked in combat.

The problem I have with the instant kill answer is that you still have to put a decent amout of instant kill shots into it to do so.

If you have a venomthorpe in corner a an I fired a seekermissle or even a few strength 8 or higher shots, than yes a venomthorpe is realatively easy to instantkill. Zonathorpes and The Doom is a bit harder to do so due to a 3+ invulnerable save. Honestly it depends on the board lay out if I decide to instant kill the doom or kill it through mass fire. If I have a few trigons breahing down my neck than I will mass fire the doom. If I have little or no MCs in my face I would try the instant kill.

I think it's funny 2 of you think I do not know how to handle a Doom. What I think is funny is that instant killing is your response. It is not always the case.

FireDragons are so easy to kill it's laughable. Nowadays they rarely see the light of day unless someone don't really know what the do. They are an okay unit, unless they get across the board and are allowed to jump out of a serpant/ falcon and are allowed to melt a tank or MC. I say allowed. I should say with most armies it's allowed. Some armies can't really kill them until they pop out of the serpent or falcon.

Again everyone has opinions. Mine is the doom is broken. If name calling is all you can do to validate that the Doom is not broken than I pretty much have won my arguement since you agree with me, but for whatever reason you want to be differant.

[daboarder]

see I love your hypocrisy its music for my eyes.

I mean you argue that Firedragons are useless and not seen.....when was the last time you saw a T4 3W heavy nid list?

hint: you don't because T4 just isn't hard to gib in an edition where S8 is proliferate.

As I said previously a single devastor squad with standard loadout kills the DoM in a single turn.

Darklink and I have both used averages to support our arguments but clearly your anecdotal evidence is vastly superior.

[chicop76]

see I love your hypocrisy its music for my eyes.

I mean you argue that Firedragons are useless and not seen.....when was the last time you saw a T4 3W heavy nid list?

hint: you don't because T4 just isn't hard to gib in an edition where S8 is proliferate.

As I said previously a single devastor squad with standard loadout kills the DoM in a single turn.

Darklink and I have both used averages to support our arguments but clearly your anecdotal evidence is vastly superior.

Let me put it so you can understand better. When I said they rarely seen the light of day. I meant they are usually targeted and die before they can do anything. Not that no one uses them. Hope you understand a bit better now.

Ok and I said anything about nids running a lot of t4 models. Most of the models I mention for them is t6 to t3. I was using the venomthorpe as an example of how easy to kill a model without a 3+ invulnerable. Although with endurance and how d-grenades turn that cover save to +4 instead of +5 in some cases it might not be a bad ideal to play with venomthorpes now.

I have acknowledge both of your averages. I really hate quoting myself since if you really read what I said I wouldn't have to. To spare me and ***ume that I didn't I will again go over your averages.

Firedragons is a waste of time since more than likely they would instant kill the Doom. It is also the only unit in the game out of 16 armies that can take all melta weapons and can easily number up to 10. Yes I know you can take 7 meltas on O'Shova's bodyguard for 14 melta shots, but fire dragons don't cost 1/4 of your army either.

That being said and addressing more realistic units like devestators since marine players in abundance use this squad. You have 4 missiles. Marines fire at bs 4 which means they hit 2/3 of the time. Which means out of 4 shots they hit 2.66 times. Not 3 since that would be rounding up. They hit 2.66 times. Next you rolling to wound. You can assume 2.66 since you wound on 2s right. You have to take in account that you wound on 2s which means that you would wound the doom 2.22 times with your 4 shots. Throw in that the doom has a +3 invulnerable save against that 2.22 wounds. That means against 4 marines with strength 8 shots that it will fail .74 of the time.

.74 does not = 1. So your 4 missiles on average will not kill the doom. It has a good chance on average. .74 is almost 1 wound enough to kill it. Like I said it is tougher to instant kill than you and darklink making it seem.

[DarkLink]

I didn't call anyone stupid.

No, but you did imply that you're smarter than everyone else. My point is, try not to sound condescending and people might actually listen to you.

How is like a 400 point random powered model broken. I easily dealt with that. The differance between the doom and I hope to get iron arm and endurance, feel no pain 4+, with +1 wound and it shall not die. Is one I know exactlly what I am getting and the other can die to a double 1 on the warpstorm table. Heck that 400 point model can die as soon as it hit the shooting phase. Actually The Storm Abates can't really kill it, but Punised by the Gods can. Save me the trouble with dealing with it if it is punished by the gods lol.

CSM Daemon Prince, no Warpstorm Table, and closer to 300pts. And I'm sure that there are armies out there that can easily deal with a T9 FMC with 2+ cover, reroll 1's to save, FNP, It Will Not Die, Eternal Warrior, etc, though I can't think of many, but remember that it's pretty unlikely to even get that combination of powers in the first place. My point, which you missed, was to present an example of something that was genuinely potentially game-breaking, because most armies in the game can't deal with that other than to just try and avoid it.

Also, grammar again. Half those sentences are gibberish. I don't want to be a grammar ****, but I also like to be able to understand what other people are trying to say.

1. You can control somewhat wher you land. That is something you are over looking. Even if you drift on an average of 7" the po size and the 6" disembark can put you on average where you want. Not even throwing in you hit on target 1/3 of the time. Meaning most of the time you can place the Doom where ever you like.

And this is a big deal because? I've based my statements on the assumption that you can drop in and hit 3-4 units in one go, though your opponent should be smart enough to spread out a little bit more than that. It depends on what army he plays.

2. Keeping in mind the fact the doom gets a large blast and a 6" aura attack you are taking some loses. In a pinch instead of shooting you can decided to run for more disruption. Lol.

The Doom shouldn't live to do either, but, yes, the blast is nice.

BTW, what's with the random lol's?

3. So you saying you will move your heavy weapon squads out of the 6" and now can only snap fire. Brillant! I caused you to take a disadvantage due to a cheap model. Also keep in mind in some cases you simply can't move out of the area effect. Either you moving up towards my nids, bunching up closer together for some biovore love. Moving out of the way of the doom actually helps the nid player lol.

It's all situational, but Space Wolf Long Fangs are the only army that I can think of that this would even be relevant. Maybe Tau Broadsides, too, but they've got Drones as ablative wounds so they can probably take it. Otherwise, everything just walks outside of 6" and opens up with bolters, meltaguns, whatever. If your army can't muster up enough mobile firepower to kill the Doom reliably in one turn without having enough left over to shoot other enemy units, your army sucks. Your strawman argument fails. Though, yes, dropping next to Long Fangs is a good forked attack.

It's called tactics.

And there's with the attitude again. Seriously, I don't care how big your **** is.

4. Like I said before I doubt the Doom is the only deep striking model. Keeping that in mind you may be blocked off from even moving out of 6". You can't go off the table to get out of the aura.

You must play against people who are really bad with deployment and the movement phase in 40k.

Also with your example how are you getting +1 toughness. Just asking. Also invisibility is two charges by the way which leaves one for iron arm or endurance. I seriously doubt you can get all that. Again it's not broken due to dumb luck on a random table and dishing out almost 400 points into a huge point sink.

CSM Chaos Gifts. One of them is +1T. Also, second psyker casts some of the powers. I used the DP as an example because I actually saw this in a game a week or two ago, and it was the closest thing to something that was actually broken that I could think of off the top of my head. You get lucky enough to pull off this particular combo, and the DP can walk through armies on its own.

If you think that Tzeentch Prince is broken than the Doom is beyond broken lol.

No. And, again, what's with the random lols? Are you, like, 12? And female? And a time traveler visiting from about ten years in the past?

When a person decides to use name calling to get his point across. It usually means that you know I am right and is upset that you can't prove otherwise.

And here comes the troll logic.

For the record. I never said the Doom is unstopable. @Darklink yes there are ways you can handle the Doom, but you are seriously down playing the model.

Broken and unstoppable (unstoppable has two P's) are close enough to synonymous in most cases. Alternatively, it might be broken if it drops in and could reliably kill half your army in one go, and then at that point who cares if it lives. Alas, while it can reliably make its points back, that qualifies it as a good unit, not as a broken one. For the Doom to be broken, you have to roll really well, but almost any unit can qualify as broken if you roll well enough. Heck, most armies can kill 2-3 models out of multiple squads in one round of shooting and force morale tests and the each unit could potentially run off the board, if you're lucky enough.

If you're lucky enough.

Just like with the Daemon Prince example, Tzeentch Daemon Princes aren't really broken, unless you're lucky enough to roll up the exact combo of powers and gifts and don't fail your Grounding checks for a turn or two, which is another way to say that you've got to be lucky.

So for the Doom to qualify as broken, you've got to drop in, tag 4 or so units, roll 18's or something for all their leadership tests, then not fail any 3++ saves next turn. That would be broken. Except that requires quite a bit of luck. Ergo, the Doom is very good, but not broken.

The model works best with other modes supporting it. Again it's low cost is what makes it broken. Anything that can easily earn back it's points and cause good people like Darklink to be upset to me is the definition of a broken model. Not only is it good in game, but also causes meltdows out of game as well.

So your qualification for being broken is 1) makes its points back, and 2) pisses other people off? You must think half the units in the game are broken.

Besides, why do you assume I'm upset? In particular, why do you assume that I'm upset because the Doom is so good? Or is that just your poor writing again, because while you said the latter I'm pretty sure that you didn't intend to mean that I'm upset about the Doom specifically, rather that other people get upset facing the Doom, and that I'm just upset, well, just because. Could you rephrase that, for clarity's sake?

Only people who are acting like brats are people who do not know how to debate. I never said side a was wrong. I just said why I think Doom is broken. Side A if they choose to insult rather than prove my point is invalid is up to them.

Didn't you just falsely accuse me of name-calling? There's a word for that, which daboarder already brought up. I never called you any names until this post, in which I pointed out some trollish behavior. Yet you've called me a brat. Very mature of you.

The Doom has won games. Not all of them no, but it has. What makes it annoying is that x unit can be locked in combat with y nid. On top of combat you have to deal with the doom attacking you while you in combat, but not in combat. What other model does that. It can attack you from range while you locked in combat.

A buddy of mine who plays Thousand Sons has had his Helbrute with a lascannon win games for him. Doesn't make it a good unit. When you roll straight 6's with a particular model, that wins games, and it has nothing to do with how powerful the model is.

The problem I have with the instant kill answer is that you still have to put a decent amout of instant kill shots into it to do so.

If you have a venomthorpe in corner a an I fired a seekermissle or even a few strength 8 or higher shots, than yes a venomthorpe is realatively easy to instantkill. Zonathorpes and The Doom is a bit harder to do so due to a 3+ invulnerable save. Honestly it depends on the board lay out if I decide to instant kill the doom or kill it through mass fire. If I have a few trigons breahing down my neck than I will mass fire the doom. If I have little or no MCs in my face I would try the instant kill.

Yeah. With T4 and a 3+ save, invulnerable or not, it's not hard to kill it with just bolters, even if it does pick up some bonus wounds.

I think it's funny 2 of you think I do not know how to handle a Doom. What I think is funny is that instant killing is your response. It is not always the case.

I never said anything about that. Don't put words in my mouth. What I do find odd, though, is that you agree here that the Doom can be 'handled', yet you seem so adamant that it's broken.

FireDragons are so easy to kill it's laughable. Nowadays they rarely see the light of day unless someone don't really know what the do. They are an okay unit, unless they get across the board and are allowed to jump out of a serpant/ falcon and are allowed to melt a tank or MC. I say allowed. I should say with most armies it's allowed. Some armies can't really kill them until they pop out of the serpent or falcon.

Why are we still talking about Fire Dragons? They've only been brought up as they're the Eldar's best source of massed Str 8. I've said a couple of times now that Eldar are old and outdated, so the fact that they can be countered isn't really relevant. Saying the Doom is broken because it can presumably beat up Eldar is like saying someone's a good fighter because they can beat up a little kid.

Again everyone has opinions. Mine is the doom is broken.

Opinions should be backed up by arguments. Your argument seems to amount to 'teh Doom is awesome', and you've ignored everyone else's arguments except to take potshots at our competence at 40k and to nit-pick examples that are either irrelevant or out of context. But I guess you've claimed you've won, so I guess you win the internets.

If name calling is all you can do to validate that the Doom is not broken than I pretty much have won my arguement since you agree with me, but for whatever reason you want to be differant.

Again with the hypocrisy?

[QUOTE=chicop76;308676]Let me put it so you can understand better. When I said they rarely seen the light of day. I meant they are usually targeted and die before they can do anything. Not that no one uses them. Hope you understand a bit better now.

Again with the condescending attitude? What are you, 12?

Ok and I said anything about nids running a lot of t4 models.

Ummm...? Did you mean 'never said anything'? Use your words, dude. They make you take english classes in school for a reason.

Most of the models I mention for them is t6 to t3. I was using the venomthorpe as an example of how easy to kill a model without a 3+ invulnerable. Although with endurance and how d-grenades turn that cover save to +4 instead of +5 in some cases it might not be a bad ideal to play with venomthorpes now.

I have acknowledge both of your averages. I really hate quoting myself since if you really read what I said I wouldn't have to. To spare me and ***ume that I didn't I will again go over your averages.

Huh, one of your posts must have gotten deleted. Would you be so kind as to repost what you said to address your argument?

Firedragons is a waste of time since more than likely they would instant kill the Doom. It is also the only unit in the game out of 16 armies that can take all melta weapons and can easily number up to 10. Yes I know you can take 7 meltas on O'Shova's bodyguard for 14 melta shots, but fire dragons don't cost 1/4 of your army either.

Actually, there are at least 8 separate units that I can think of off the top of my head, not counting Tau and Fire Dragons, that can get large quantities of melta. Besides, didn't you say earlier that Fire Dragons would never be able to kill the Doom because they're so easy to kill themselves that they'll never actually get a chance to shoot unless you let them?

That being said and addressing more realistic units like devestators since marine players in abundance use this squad.

? Really? Space Wolves, maybe, but even now in 6th they're a lot less common than in 5th. But other than Long Fangs, I don't know if Devestators have ever been spammed by actual, competitive armies.

That means against 4 marines with strength 8 shots that it will fail .74 of the time.

Umm... no, that's not what it means. You fail at statistics.

What that means is that, on average dice, Marines will cause .74 ID wounds on the Doom. So there's about a 40% chance they'll kill the Doom. I don't feel like doing the math to get the exact percentage, binomial probability is kind of a pain.

Anyways, sure, Devestators aren't the greatest. If all you've got is one single unit of Devestators, then you've got problems.

Besides, if you're assuming Devestators specifically, then you should take into account the Signum for some BS 5, and Null Zone for reroll invulnerable saves. That bumps you up to 1.31 wounds on average, so more than 50% of the time you'll kill the Doom.

.74 does not = 1. So your 4 missiles on average will not kill the doom. It has a good chance on average. .74 is almost 1 wound enough to kill it. Like I said it is tougher to instant kill than you and darklink making it seem.

6 Long Fangs with 5 MLs is, what, ~150pts? Cheaper than the Doom. And there should be several of them. Comparisons like this in a vaccum amount to little more than strawmen arguments.

[OrksOrksOrks]

I have been warned about trolling and using personal attacks, yet I've chosen to ignore those warnings. My account is now under a 7 day ban

[chicop76]

. And you're over-exaggerating the lethality of the Doom. It's a leadership test on 3d6. That's maybe 2-3 models a squad, with only a 6" range. Interceptor if possible, and it won't even get that. Move outside of 6" and it'll have to chase you, and it shouldn't live through your shooting phase. It's possible for it to kill a lot of stuff, if you roll really, really high on the leadership tests, but it's not that scary nor even that hard to kill.

1 dev squad = dead DoM.

Just...I dunno if you don't get that 2 S8 weapons have a good chance of killing the DoM....

look it doesn't "suck up firepower", Nor does it act as "a uge distraction" if your opponent is reacting appropriately it should take 3 S8 shots to the face and be statistically dead.

The DoM live on the outliers, some games it will be fantastic and eeat whole armies, other games it will die to a powerfist/meltagun without killing a single model. Its also worth noting that as people llearn more the death by S8 is more and more likely.

Here I am gussing 3 strength 8 hit's maybe two. The Doom is not that easy for you to kill.

1 dev squad = dead DoM

This is where the dev squad comes from. You ask why I bring it up.

DoM is not that difficult for most armies to deal with if you have a halfway decent list and are a halfway decent player. It's pretty good and certainly annoying, but it's far from overpowered.

Here is where you started the so called tone. In other words if you know how to play 40k the doom is nothing, and if you're a bad player it destroys. If that was the case why tournament playing nid list bother to add them. If I go against a decent player why field it right. I guess this is a ploy to get people to leave it at home, due to you not wanting to go against it.

Eldar are a poor comparison anyways, they don't get much str 8 because of how outdated their codex is. Just because a weak, outdated army might have a tough time dealing with it doesn't make it broken or OP.

I never brought up Eldar as the only army to deal with the Doom. For some reason you keep bringing up Eldar. Also you're under-exaggerating the lethality of the Doom. Will you roll 18's for leadership. No, but 11 and 12 is common enough. 9-10 is average enough. You can't alwas roll average or below average depending on how many models is within range.

if you spread your army out to not get nuked by the doom. Than you are making it easier for the nid army to advance with less concentrated shots heading toward them. Sigh poor darklink. You must play a lot of new players. I pity that you don't play many advanced players often.

1 dev squad = dead DoM.

most people complain about SC because they change the game dynamics, forcing people to think differently. As such they are necessary to keep the game fresh and variable otherwise it would stagnate.

What Eldar army doesn't have Fire Dragons? Seriously, they're one of the only good units in the whole book. And citing a game where the dice were clearly in your favor isn't much of an argument. Nor did I say that the Doom is only useful against Noobs.

The Doom is good. But there are plenty of ways to deal with him, so he's not broken.

Again you bring up Fire Dragons.

Oh, hey, almost half the time the Doom does nothing, and even when it does something it's still only a 6" range and odds are it's only 2-3 wounds. Yeah, that's totally broken. I don't see how anyone could possibly survive one round of that hitting 2, maybe 3 units.

Red herring. Runes of Warding is quite irrelevant. Runes has a greater than 50% chance of completely negating the only thing that makes most Librarians type HQs useful, anywhere on the board, for 15pts that you can hide in a transport. Doom has an extremely short range, is highly exposed, and has a solid chance of not doing anything except make opponents like you panic. The fact that both rely on 3d6 ld tests is about the only thing that's similar between the two.



Did you really misunderstand or misrepresent my statement such that you actually thought I claimed that Fire Dragons instantly negated the Doom? I've said like four times that the Doom is good, just not broken. Fire Dragons came up because they're one of the only ways for Eldar, a very old and outdated codex, to reliably kill the Doom, but keep in mind that mech Eldar could also just fly away outside of its range until they had a chance to effectively deal with it, or hit it with their str 6 spam and force saves and kill it.



I'm glad you think everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends that way.



Not entirely sure what you're rambling about, but whatever




Would you like some cheese with that whine?

By the way, you might want to use a browser with spellcheck. And work on the difference between 'it's' and 'its'. Grammar, too. Just saying.

This is where your jabs and attacks are quite obvious. Instead of really vallidating your view, you decide to insult and heaven help me if I can't agree with you. Honestly that mentality only works to disagree with you more.


Anyway I brought up the Eldar gear to make a point. When it's the runes you said it works more than 50% of the time, and against the Doom you said it barely works. Make up your mind. Both abilities are 3d6 vs leadership. If runes of witnessing go off more than 50% of the time, than the same applies to the dooms abiity going off 50% of the time. Hince why I am comparing the two.

What about those FireDragons.

If you don't think its unstoppable stop acting like a whiny brat

.Wow. Like I said I didn't start with the name calling. Everything is stopable. The problem is you can't make an army that can stop everything.

It's broken due to it"s double aura effect, and it's firing before most armies could do anything about it. The nid drop pod as long you make sure you're 12" away from the board edge you can land just fine. Once you disembark 6" you can easily correct your ds mistake.

Tau and Grey Knights is the only armies to kill the doom before it's effects go off. Than again it's only realistic that Tau would kill it before it does anything, so Tau is the only army to kill it, but that calls for 3 twin rail guns, instead of those high yield missle pods. Meaning even against Tau it is likely to come out alive with the lost of a few wounds.

To not take any damage from the 3d6 rolling which is 3-18 you need to roll average. Like 3,3,4 or 6,1,3 or 5,4,1, etc even with leadership 10 you need to roll average or below average. I can see you saying only 2d6 it's not a problem, but 3d6 is.

If rolling under 10 on a 3d6 is sooooo easy. Than why people complain about how annoying a certain 15 point piece of gear a Farseer has. All I hear is I can't cast crap or models dying to a 15 piece of wargear. Yet when a doom forces checks within 6" of it it's not bad and easy to make. No it's not.

Than how many races are even leadership 10. The average leadership for most armies with character up grades are usually 9 while you get as low as 2 with some models, but 7 is your typical lowest.

Like I said before we are not throwing in any broodlords lowering leadership at all. 3 well placed brodlords can lower leadership between 1-3.

Yes firedragons can toast a doom, or a devestator squad etc. The problem with your logic is you asumming the nid player has no range attacks, like no 12 shot strength 6 attacks, no 6 strength 8 attacks from hive guard, etc. I guarantee any competant nid player would target such threat squads. Fire dragons in a wave serpent have to disembark to fire at the doom. Once they done so the nid army can open up and kill them now.

Let me put it this way, so you can understand a bit more.

All armies, but daemons and a few other models you can say weapon x can kill model y really easy. Daemons is an exception since they can save against most things in 40k. I can say bolters can easily kill daemonettes for example, that is not true. It is as trueas the dice dictates. Due to rolling the damonettes can easily laugh at bolter shots as it bounces off them, or get slaughtered by the hail of bullets.

Daemons is an example of an army if you roll good it does good. If you roll bad it does bad.

If I have a Tau strength 5 ap 5 weapon I can say I can easily kill gaunts due to wounding on 2s and they can't save unless they get a cover save. Next I have pathfinders which denies cover, so tau can easily kill models with a +5 save. No matter what the nid player does he can't roll to ulter the outcome of them dying. Unless he gives them fnp via endurance or catylist.

ith the doom you have a +3 invulnerable save. Meaning it ain't dying unless the nid player fails it's save. If player x is a bad roller than doom dies easy. If player y is known to roll above average a lot than you can take awhile to kill it.

Everytime I seen the doom used. Majority of the time it makes back it's points and more. Yes I seen it die to a lucky strength 8 hit or scatter off the board. However if I can say 8 out of 10 games it has earned back it's points than bing it's a good model. Hmmm can't do anything against it and get's to nuke surronding models before I can actually do anything, and shoot a pie plate as well. The doom.

It's almost like saying runes of witnessing isn't broken, or Jaws of the warp wolf, or a vindicator turbo round vs vehicles, or half the Necron book, man the Necrons.

grey Knights are not broken due to the really high cost of what they put out. Even cortez razorback spam is not broken. However my question to all marine players is this, or questions.

1. Can marines take assault cannons with infantry or assault marines
2. Assault Cannon= 30-40 points, Psycannon only 10 points
3. Can marines even take 2-4 assault cannons in their squads
4. Wait psycannons or strength 7 not 6
5. Assault cannons are heavy always while psycannons can be assault 2, so you can assault with a heavy weapon.

Now I think a weapon that is 1/3 the cost of what other marines pay for a similiar type of weapon is broken with the added bonus of higher strength, squads can have it, and giving it an assault option.

I put the doom in the broken category due to it's cheap and can aura effect twice. It's a distraction which allows tervigons, trygons, and tyrants to go unmolested due to the non nid playes using possible anti monster weapons to kill a doom.

Yes, I do. I've used Abaddon, Typhus, Ahriman, Lucius, Asdrubael Vect, Lady Malys, the Doom of Malan'tai, Kaldor Draigo, Inquisitor Coteaz and Kairos Fateweaver.
I have played against countless more.
I find their inclusion into the game to be very fun and fluffy, though they are not always "balanced" - though the same can be said of many generic characters.

Lately, I've been trying out a themed Thousand Sons list with Ahriman at 1500 points. Ahriman joins eight Terminators (nine strong unit) backed by two nine-strong Thousand Sons units and eighteen Cultists (because of the minimum ten in a unit). Because of their similarity to the old Tzeentch Epic scale flyers, and that they have AP3 weapons, I also have a pair of Heldrakes. It is a shoddy army list that works because Ahriman is so darn useful with his Infiltrate - and his psychic powers do make a big difference provided you don't roll badly - and the Heldrakes are just too darn difficult to deal with (which I don't like, so I may switch them out if I can find something that works for theme purposes). In a recent game against a Tau tournament player, I managed a draw in the face of overwhelming odds simply because my army is so darn good at removing enemy scoring units if they aren't either in hordes or in transports. I can't deal with any kind of vehicle at long range though, but eh.
So, long story short, I am really starting to appreciate Ahriman's abilities, though I am lucky that I have yet to roll a Perils of the Warp!

On the Doom, it is so darn good because it is incredibly inexpensive for what it does. Taking it in a 1500 point list doesn't eat up as much of your points as you might think (though admittedly much of the Tyranid army is over-costed), and it has the potential to win games on its own (I've watched it do so several times). It isn't broken because it can be dealt with quite easily provided you know the appropriate way to attack it, though it depends on the opponent. Some seem to forget that it also has a nasty pie plate attack, though with Deny the Witch and scatter, it isn't amazing. If your opponent fails to kill it with any Strength eight or higher weapons when it drops, it can make its points back doubly in record time. That, and it scares the pants off of a lot of players. For those reasons alone, and how cheap it is, I think it is worth taking every time.

I agree, but if it was properly costed than it would be a good model. The fact that it tends to do as much as it does for so little is why I define it broken instead of good. Let's put it this way. What other model in the game can deal as much damage as the doom at it's cost.

No, but you did imply that you're smarter than everyone else. My point is, try not to sound condescending and people might actually listen to you.

Good words to live by. That is what I call, calling the kettle black. You should live by your own words. Name calling makes you look like your're a 9 year old trying to get a point across.

CSM Daemon Prince, no Warpstorm Table, and closer to 300pts. And I'm sure that there are armies out there that can easily deal with a T9 FMC with 2+ cover, reroll 1's to save, FNP, It Will Not Die, Eternal Warrior, etc, though I can't think of many, but remember that it's pretty unlikely to even get that combination of powers in the first place. My point, which you missed, was to present an example of something that was genuinely potentially game-breaking, because most armies in the game can't deal with that other than to just try and avoid it.

Also, grammar again. Half those sentences are gibberish. I don't want to be a grammar ****, but I also like to be able to understand what other people are trying to say. .

Oh you mean the Space Marine Prince. Not that their is another codex with a daemon prince in it. +1 toughness on the boon table really. That makes getting all that highly unlikely. Instead of almost 400 points it's still over 300 points and close to 350, lol, that lol was for you lol( lol). Anyway it's still not hard to deal with. The doom is more troublesome for 1/3 the cost. The doom can actually kill that prince in combat is kinda funny. Yes the only chance the prince has is to smash. If it didn't smash the doom would win everytime and what that tells you about the doom.

And this is a big deal because? I've based my statements on the assumption that you can drop in and hit 3-4 units in one go, though your opponent should be smart enough to spread out a little bit more than that. It depends on what army he plays.



The Doom shouldn't live to do either, but, yes, the blast is nice.

BTW, what's with the random lol's?
.

Lol. Why not. Lol. Yes you can spread out which is fine, by doing so it's easier to isolate sections of your army with less components able to aid one another. The Doom is impacting your deployment decision making from the start of the game.

In most games the doom can get of the double aura effect and fire it's blast template, before you can do anything to it. Unless you have interceptor you really can't stop the Doom from doing that. If you move I know majority of the armies have some sort of heavy weapon in the squads,etc. Also the Doom player controls where he is dropping the Doom. Meaning he is not going to drop it near a bunch of melta gunners for example.

It's all situational .

Yes it is! Bingo! Hit the Nail in the right place! I ca say I totally agree to that. In some situations the Doom can cause porblems and in some it can be dealt with. It's broken due to what it does. If it's just a good model I wouldn't have to move my models around and focus what I have to make sure I kill it. It's like the bloodthirster if you ignore it you can lose chunks of your army. If you focus kill it that takes fire away from other threats. Hounds and a Thirster is a distaction for other units. However those units tend to hit 3x as much as the Doom. The fact the Doom can cause a player to focus it and the fact it cost so little puts it above from being a good model. In a game where you can roll 8 one, anything is killable even if it is broken

Also keep in mind that it's not the only model ds or breathing down your throat.

And there's with the attitude again. Seriously, I don't care how big your **** is.
.

And again with your attitude!

No. And, again, what's with the random lols? Are you, like, 12? And female? And a time traveler visiting from about ten years in the past?

.

And this is not a troll statement. I troll back and call you a 8 year old. Lol.

So your qualification for being broken is 1) makes its points back, and 2) pisses other people off? You must think half the units in the game are broken.


.

No. Just cheap costing models that can easily get their points back without you being able to do anything to stop it. Although I do think some Necron stuff is broken. Other than that the Vindicare assassin is very close to broken since he can take out vehicles really easy.

Besides, why do you assume I'm upset? In particular, why do you assume that I'm upset because the Doom is so good? Or is that just your poor writing again, because while you said the latter I'm pretty sure that you didn't intend to mean that I'm upset about the Doom specifically, rather that other people get upset facing the Doom, and that I'm just upset, well, just because. Could you rephrase that, for clarity's sake?

.

I don't know why I think that. I think I quoted you enough to convey the moments when you seemed upset. Typically name calling is done when some one is upset. My 8 year old does it when he doesn't get his way

Didn't you just falsely accuse me of name-calling? There's a word for that, which daboarder already brought up. I never called you any names until this post, in which I pointed out some trollish behavior. Yet you've called me a brat. Very mature of you.
.

Hmmm and who called who brat first. I just used the words I was called. I'm not even really being creative since I am just repeating what you two are saying. Amazing you think I started calling people brat lol. My bad you two didn't do any name calling at all. You cought me red handed. I'm guilty. The two of you are outstanding posters I strive really hard to be like. One day I'll be like you two. Hello! Bols community. I have lied and said these two outstanding individuals are name callers. I even said one was trolling. I am scum and not worthy. Yes. They are right I am wrong. Man their insight is litterly mind

I never said anything about that. Don't put words in my mouth. What I do find odd, though, is that you agree here thatthe Doom can be 'handled', yet you seem so adamant that it's broken.
.

Nah I can quote away instead of doing that. So it can be handled, doesn't mean it's not broken.

Why are we still talking about Fire Dragons .

Yes why are we? You must really like them. Darklink=firedragons

They've only been brought up as they're the Eldar's best source of massed Str 8. I've said a couple of times now that Eldar are old and outdated, so the fact that they can be countered isn't really relevant. Saying the Doom is broken because it can presumably beat up Eldar is like saying someone's a good fighter because they can beat up a little kid.




Opinions should be backed up by arguments. Your argument seems to amount to 'teh Doom is awesome', and you've ignored everyone else's arguments except to take potshots at our competence at 40k and to nit-pick examples that are either irrelevant or out of context. But I guess you've claimed you've won, so I guess you win the internets.

.

Nope! You ignore my points and talk down to me lol. Want me to sing it in nursery ryme so you can understand. " The D-o-O-M falls from they sky!" " Big head meany falls from the sky!" Lalalalala. " Nothing stops it from nuking your mind." "Nuke!Nuke!Nuke!" " Nuking the mind!" " la!la!la!la!" Is that better. You can sing along after nap time.

Again with the hypocrisy?

Let me put it so you can understand better. When I said they rarely seen the light of day. I meant they are usually targeted and die before they can do anything. Not that no one uses them. Hope you understand a bit better now.

Again with the condescending attitude? What are you, 12?



Ummm...? Did you mean 'never said anything'? Use your words, dude. They make you take english classes in school for a reason.
.

Trolling are we. Nevermind me so sorry. You be no troll in here!






Huh, one of your posts must have gotten deleted. Would you be so kind as to repost what you said to address your argument?




Actually, there are at least 8 separate units that I can think of off the top of my head, not counting Tau and Fire Dragons, that can get large quantities of melta. Besides, didn't you say earlier that Fire Dragons would never be able to kill the Doom because they're so easy to kill themselves that they'll never actually get a chance to shoot unless you let them?




? Really? Space Wolves, maybe, but even now in 6th they're a lot less common than in 5th. But other than Long Fangs, I don't know if Devestators have ever been spammed by actual, competitive armies.



Umm... no, that's not what it means. You fail at statistics.

What that means is that, on average dice, Marines will cause .74 ID wounds on the Doom. So there's about a 40% chance they'll kill the Doom. I don't feel like doing the math to get the exact percentage, binomial probability is kind of a pain.

Anyways, sure, Devestators aren't the greatest. If all you've got is one single unit of Devestators, then you've got problems.

Besides, if you're assuming Devestators specifically, then you should take into account the Signum for some BS 5, and Null Zone for reroll invulnerable saves. That bumps you up to 1.31 wounds on average, so more than 50% of the time you'll kill the Doom.



6 Long Fangs with 5 MLs is, what, ~150pts? Cheaper than the Doom. And there should be several of them. Comparisons like this in a vaccum amount to little more than strawmen arguments.