A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

[eldargal]

New Tropes Against Women video is up, Women as Background Decoration part 2:


Beyond the evil of Anita Sarkeesian, most hated woman in gaming. [URL="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwEefh5IcAAG_ob.jpg:large"]Here is a sample of some of the abuse[/URL] she gets over these videos (warning: extremely graphic sexual and violence language).

[eldargal]

[URL="http://www.xojane.com/issues/feminism-men-practical-steps"]35 PRACTICAL STEPS MEN CAN TAKE TO SUPPORT FEMINISM[/URL]
This is really good.

[Psychosplodge]

New Tropes Against Women video is up, Women as Background Decoration part 2:


Beyond the evil of Anita Sarkeesian, most hated woman in gaming. [URL="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwEefh5IcAAG_ob.jpg:large"]Here is a sample of some of the abuse[/URL] she gets over these videos (warning: extremely graphic sexual and violence language).

Just had to wiki her and I think I vaguely remember the fuss at the time of the kickstarter.
[URL="http://readwrite.com/2013/03/19/anita-sarkeesian-i-love-you-but-please-show-me-the-money"]This[/URL] seems to be possibly fair criticism (link taken from wiki page).
I've never actually watched her work so couldn't comment, however that twitter link leads to someone who needs a slap with a brick, there's no call for that.

[eldargal]

It wouldn't hurt for her to release a breakdown of expenses, but she is under no obligation to do so either. She asked for 6k to continue her series, she has continued her series. The fact that people donated an extra 154k in support of her is really just an extra, as far as I'm concerned she can blow it on blackjack , champagne and prostitutes if she wants.

[Psychosplodge]

I'll make my own youtube series, with blackjack and hookers...

[eldargal]

I think the thing that annoys me the most (well after the obscene misogyny and threats obviously because they are revolting) is you get gamer dudes who talk about games being such a fantastic medium for storytelling and games as art and all that sort of thing and then when they get treated as such as critiqued by a feminist intellectual all of a sudden it is the Worst Thing Ever. You don't even have to agree with everything she does to see that rational critiques of popular culture is important. For example, I'd argue that certain elements of DAO lift it beyond just women as background decoration (if oyu play a female PC you are one of the women taken by the guy) and it isn't just used to show how Gritty Realismistic(tm) the gameworld is but highight the specific oppression of an ethnic minority. But the trope is still used to some extent. You can probably come up with some good, rational arguments against some of the things she says and that would be fine. The trouble is 99% of the criticism levelled against her is deeply misogynist in nature so separating well intentioned debate from 'shut the feminist b1tch up' is really difficult.

[Kirsten]

The PCC is the biggest example of someone in an untenable position

yeah, the radio discussion yesterday was should he stand down? forget standing down, he should be sacked.

[Bitrider]

I think the thing that annoys me the most (well after the obscene misogyny and threats obviously because they are revolting) is you get gamer dudes who talk about games being such a fantastic medium for storytelling and games as art and all that sort of thing and then when they get treated as such as critiqued by a feminist intellectual all of a sudden it is the Worst Thing Ever. You don't even have to agree with everything she does to see that rational critiques of popular culture is important. For example, I'd argue that certain elements of DAO lift it beyond just women as background decoration (if oyu play a female PC you are one of the women taken by the guy) and it isn't just used to show how Gritty Realismistic(tm) the gameworld is but highight the specific oppression of an ethnic minority. But the trope is still used to some extent. You can probably come up with some good, rational arguments against some of the things she says and that would be fine. The trouble is 99% of the criticism levelled against her is deeply misogynist in nature so separating well intentioned debate from 'shut the feminist b1tch up' is really difficult.

Whatever else people may think of her, she is not wrong when she points out the obvious imbalance and rather unfairness [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZPSrwedvsg&src_vid=5i_RPr9DwMA&feature=iv &annotation_id=annotation_3439702615"]in Part 1 of her series[/URL] at time 7:30.... If nothing else, that is just plain laziness on the programmers part. If you are playing a girl character, make the strippers male. Eh. ...ofcourse.. while I can understand having a strip club in a game like GTA or Hitman... I am not sure I really need one in my Space Operas. Eh, part deux.

[scadugenga]

[URL="http://www.xojane.com/issues/feminism-men-practical-steps"]35 PRACTICAL STEPS MEN CAN TAKE TO SUPPORT FEMINISM[/URL]
This is really good.

Wow, did this end up longer than I initially intended...

Thanks for posting the link, EG—it was interesting reading. Much I agree with, some I flat out do not, and of course, there are points that could go either way.

Numbers 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 11, 14, 16, 21, 22, 25, 27, 29, 31: Absodamnlutely.

These steps are all about responsibility, both internal and external. Nothing but good can come out of stepping up and living it.

However, some of the steps are kinda straight up bullsh!t.

#3: No one should be forced into consuming (literally or figuratively) something that does not appeal to them. Forcing someone to do so is wrong.

#6: This—seriously needs a caveat. Sexism is not a straight white/black situation. Nothing should be taken as absolute truth just because someone said it was true. To make a slightly odd comparison: you’re not going to believe a hypochondriac is sick every time they say they are, are you? Some people like…nay, love with a borderline psychotic passion, playing the victim. They get some sort of creepy sense of personal self achievement and justification about it. Being the victim of sexism is just another card they can play. It’s purely anecdotal, but I’ve for-damned sure witnessed it. And, disgustingly enough, been the victim of it. So the caveat: if someone tells you something is sexist, consider the freaking source first. Be open to the concept—absolutely, but do not accept anything blindly.

#9: HPV is a very touchy and controversial subject. The author’s bias is really showing through.

#13: I cannot tell you how sick I am of the “check your privilege” crowd. The example is also disingenuous. Hell the division of labor was already well and truly covered in #1 and #11 above.

#17: WTH does this have to do with anything about feminism?

#19: This is also a bit disingenuous. Of course, taking anything the media says at face value should be well and truly circumspect…

#20: Except if there are women heroes/exemplars in your experience.

#23: Really. So if you’re female partner is in a bad mood and lashes out at you…it’s your fault. Really? Because, that’s just utter crap. In fact, that’s kind of the response that victims of domestic violence (who are overwhelmingly women) tend to instinctively say: “he only hit me because I did <insert trivial non-violence worthy act here>” This may be the most subversively offensive “step” on the list.


#26: This goes hand in hand with #20. Unrealistic and frankly un-needed.

#30: Uh…what? Okay-the meat of this step is actually good. It’s meant to be mostly reactive. However, the title? That’s a bit misleading.

#33: Um…wait, so I should give up 23% of my income…because why again? And it’s also disingenuous in the extreme. Here’s more anecdotal stuff, because I guess that’s how I’m rolling tonight: my wife works for a Children’s Hospital. Despite the medical field being largely female dominated, there is still income equality. Why? Because, as the CFO (a woman) and other Administrators (all but one were women) told my wife re her own salary: you need to be more assertive in negotiations. And they were right. Any company isn’t going to pay you more than they can get away with. It’s a burden on *you* as the employee to negotiate. My wife, whose lifelong dream it was to work for this hospital, did not negotiate as well as she should have. (Ironically, she gets better raises than anyone else in the hospital—but that’s because she’s that awesome.) But this is systematic wherever you go that isn’t governed by a strict payscale hierarchy. (EG, my employer, being a large national company, has salaries that are absolutely not based on gender. Everyone, no matter age, gender, sexual orientation, what have you, starts at the same salary per salary grade. Raises are determined solely on production (well, supposedly…that’s debatable) and are usually unilateral across the board.) And it’s solely a matter of negotiation. Some people are better than others at it. And it’s also not a matter of timidity or weakness either. My wife? Not the best negotiator. However, she has utterly physically destroyed men 2-3 times her size when she felt threatened. (Kinda leads back to #4…)

#34: More privilege bullcrap. I will be unapologetic about calling it that too. If it weren’t used so often as a catchall argument “winner” then maybe it might have a place.


So—that got a bit rant-filled. The interesting steps that have some great options for conversation were #’s 5, 10, 12, 15, 18, 24, 28, 32 and 35.

#5 is interesting as definitely, you should be willing to step in, but at the same time—you also need to be mindful of the friend you’re helping out. Does she really want/need the help? Is she stringing along the jerk until she can truly hoist him on his own petard? Will you somehow diminish her own self-worth by “rescuing her?” White-Knighting it (you know I still remember that tripe from a few years ago, when all and sundry were accused of running off to tilt at windmills for you on the main BoLS page…) can have unintended consequences that do more harm than good.

#10 is really something that needs to be discussed and dealt with after looking at the whole wide range of potential modifiers. Cultural taboos, mores, familial obligations, etc. Personally—and it makes me smile a bit in wonder after knowing this for years, I really have to hand it to the Sikhs. They had this down centuries ago, when Guru Gobind Singh made it mandatory for Sikh women to use the surname Kaur and Sikh males to use the surname Singh. (Kaur means princess and Singh means lion) That is because in the Sikh religion, men and women are celebrated as sovereign and equal before God. It also has the nice result of removing any discrimination based on family name.

#12 is a potential hotbed of contention. Hell, it could almost be its own thread of discussion. My grandmother, rest her soul, considered the kitchen her divinely-gifted demesne, and woe to anyone, particularly the male half of the family, who dared try and insert themselves anywhere near it without her express permission and authority. We found other ways to be useful after a family gathering…

#15: Also needs another thread.

#18: Here’s another interesting discussion-worthy topic. Yes, ogling is bad, nor is it remotely appropriate to be rude (online or verbally) based on a woman’s appearance. (The reverse should also be true, btw). There is absolutely a line, and it should not be crossed. However, there is also something to be said that if a woman does make a particular effort in her appearance, then there should be nothing wrong with *politely* commenting about it. You could almost call it casual (IE without any ulterior motive) flirting. An example: About a week ago I was at the grocer’s after work. As I’m walking out with my purchases, a lady walked in—probably mid 40’s, and dressed to the 9’s. She looked like she had a long day. As we passed each other, I said “excuse me ma’am, but if you don’t mind a completely random compliment from a complete stranger—you look amazing today.” And then I continued on my way—I wasn’t trying to enter into a conversation, no ulterior motive. Just a random observation-compliment. No ogling, persistent staring, personal space invasion (which I’m kinda aware about as well) or any creepster-like behavior. And damned if it didn’t put a smile on her face.

Random compliments—just for the sake of making the day a bit brighter, should be encouraged, not hidden away under the worries of inappropriate behavior. But, like the article says—it’s a fine line.

#28: What’s good for the goose is good for the gander… This shouldn’t be a feminist topic (but I can see how it is), and just be labeled “don’t be a jacka$$.”

#32: I was actually kind of spot on with this until the “legs splayed” bit. Phaugh. Short people. Don’t tell me about leg-splaying until you give me enough damn leg-ROOM first. :P

#35: Since feminism isn’t one actual codified “ism” yet (and as you pointed out your own stance has evolved since the beginning of the thread) I think it’s odd to tell men to “self-identify” as something that’s still very malleable. Instead, just freaking walk the walk.

[eldargal]

Anita Sarkeesian has been forced to leave her home after serious death threats and threats of sexual violence were made against her and her family, by men who claim she fabricated her harassment for attention and that that she needs to shut up because there is no misogyny in gaming culture. Yup.

Scad:
3:

In whatever your interests are -- French cinema, astrophysics, baseball, birdwatching -- ensure that women’s voices and women’s cultural products are represented in what you are consuming. If they are not, make an effort to seek them out.

It's not saying consume things you don't like, it's saying seek out products created by women in areas you are interested in. So female authors, gave developers, artists, screenwriters etc. in whateveer genres you like. Try and find some women creators, who are usually much less well known because they get ignored, and check out their products and support them if you like them.

6. No it doesn't. Women experience sexism, men do not, so it is largely invisible to them. When a woman tells you something is sexist, you should believe her because she is the one experiencing it while you are not.

9. Not really? The more people who get vaccinated the safer everyone is.

13. Privilege is one of the more confronting elements of social justice, but 'check our privilege' has almost become a rallying cry for anti-feminists and anti-SJWs who don't really know what it means. I don't actually see that many feminists using th phrase. I don't think the example she gives is disengenous, she is just saying be aware of pay gap differences and try and allow your partner more autonomy than she might get if she was relying solely on her own income.

17. If you get paid more because you are man and you don't look after your health and get sick of injured it effects your partner more because her own earning power is less. She has to provide for both of you on less.

19. It's not really, we live in a culture were men speak and everyone else listens. Only around a third of all opinion pieces in English media are written by women, which means we overwhelmingly get a male point of view projected on us, even in opposing sides of a debate both will be coloured by male privilege and experience.The abortion debate in the US is a classic example, 80% of the people making the decision and most of the people talking about it in the media are men.

20. Not sure what you mean

23. No. If your spouse lashes out, listen to her and talk to her and find out why rather dismissing it as 'nagging'. This is a huge problem. We teach boys and young men that wives nag, that it is just something they do, there is no reason for it. so instead of listening and communicating about issues within a relationship men can dismiss it as just what spouses do and not a real problem.

26. You would be surprised how many men don't have female role models though and how few female role models are presented in popular culture. We talk a lot about guys having 'father figures' to look up to while mothers nurture them, we don't talked about them having female heroes.

30. Not really? It is about showing men you are feminist and trying to correct problematic behaviours they have. Men identifying as feminist is important because it breaks down the media-driven stereotype that feminists are just angry women complaining about things.

33. Why not? You earn that much extra for the sole reason you are male. Women working as hard and skillfully earn that much less because they are women. You actively benefit from a system which disadvantages women. Showing some financial support for womens organisations isn't a bad idea. I wouldn't necessarily say the whole 23% but what you can afford. Also remember tha 23% is to white women only, a black woman earns 77c to the white male dollar and a latino woman 56c, in the US.

34. Not bull****, the fact you can't see it is because privilege is invisible when you have it. You are better off as a male simply because you are a male in a society that treats you as the default. You can be unapologetic all you want but all that shows is that you are blind to it because it doesn't affect you. You earn more, you get promoted more easily, people trust you more etc. as a white male. All these are measurable and observable, they are real. It's jsut confronting to accept when you are told your whole life that you earn what you get, to discover you earn more than others simply by virtue of being born male.

Not trying to be critical here Scad, as I've said privilege is one of the more confronting elements of social and cultural discrimination, but it is there and it is able to be measured and independently illustrated, like the gender pay gap and the fact companies will admit to not promotiing women 'because they will just go and get pregnant' and so forth (no one ever considered the impact fatherhood will have on a mans career because it is assumed the wife will be doing all the work, it is never assumed the woman might not have kids or that her husband might do the work so she can focus on her career).

5. Sure, if someone doesn't want help, but you need to be aware of body language so you know when your friends aren't just putting on a brave face to avoid provoking the man and when they are genuinely just having a good time. I can't tell you how hopeless most men are at this, they assume because a girl is smiling and putting up with some creeps attentions that they must be enjoying it. It's a survival behaviour, avoid provoking or escalating because men often turn aggressive or violent.

10. Sure but the context of the article is Western culture. If your wife wants to keep her name, let her. Hyphenate if you want. If she is happy to take your name then that is fine too, feminism is about choice.

12. I agree with this a bit, but again it comes to choice. Your grandmother chooses to dominate the kitchen and that is fine, but it doesn't mean at othe events you could try taking some of the share of cooking if you notice that women are doing most of it. There is still an assumption that women cook in the home and men don't, even though the reality is far more complex.

15. Nope. Not saying anything in the face of harassment is taken as tacit approval by the people doing it. Men who do not call out sexism online or in person are part of the problem. They can ignore it because they don't experience it, women have to live with it.

18. It depends on the context. If you know her then sure, saying she looks nice is fine. Going up to a complete stranger on the street and complimenting may seem harmless, it can also be intimidating or scary and it still sends the message that a womans appearance is something for men to consume. It can also be that the woman just wants to get to where she is going without any kind of undue attention or stopping to accept compliments. What it boils down to is that men do not have a right to comment on womens appearance, even in a positive way. On the other hand having someone come up and politely say how much they like your dress or hair or whatever can be really nice so it is a tough one.

28. Not really. Men do not have their appearance policed by society in the way women do. You have to wear a tie to work maybe, women are expected to look their best all the time. There are literally entire industries dedicated to a) making women feel bad for how they look by not looking like an unobtainable ideal and then b) selling them products to help make them look more like that ideal. It's not about saying to your spouse 'that t-shirt is tatty, don't wear it'. Its policing at a cultural level that individuals reinforce when they engage in it.

32. Sure as a 6'3" person I can vouch that it is hard to fit yourself in sometimes.:) But what it is referring to is people sprawled on a chair and preventing other people from sitting there and often being quite physically intimidating too. We teach women to take up the minimum space they need, but we teach boys they can sprawl and take up more space than they need, it's a thing. There were some good articles on it on tumblr going about, wich I could find them now but I don't have time.

35. Sure but identifying as feminist is still important for men, as I said above. I'm a sex positive intersectional lipstick feminist but I'm still just a feminist. MY views may change and evolve as they should as I'm exposed to new information and issues but I remain a feminst. When a man identifies as a feminist it sends a powerful message to his social circle that problematic treatment of women will not be tolerated. Sadly, men listen to men more than they listen to women. Changing a culture of sexism and misogyny begins with individuals telling the people around them that they will not tolerate sexist behaviour.:)