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  1. #1

    Default A Crash Course in Feminism Mk. II (or, why everyone should be a feminist)

    So the old one got locked, please leave whatever arguments were happening there and don't go getting this one locked.

    Feminism is one of the most misunderstood philosophies in the modern world, largely because of a male dominated media that is threatened by it, doesn't understand it and has a vested interest in misrepresenting it.. Growing up even I didn't consider myself to be a feminist until my mother sat down and explained exactly what feminism is at its core, with all the misandry and nonsense shorn away. I thought I'd write it here as I see a lot of people who plainly have no clue what feminism is.

    In fact the very core tenet of feminism is easy to explain:

    A woman should be able to make her own choices and control her destiny inofar as any individual can.

    That's it really. To elaborate, though:

    Women should have the same political rights and responsibilities as a man.
    Women should have the same social and legal rights and freedoms a man enjoys.
    Women should be paid the same for doing the same work as a man.
    Women should not be subjected to discrimination or abuse simply because they are women.
    Women should not be barred from doing something a man can do based solely on their gender*.


    Anyone who believes in the freedom to be in charge of their own life insofar as any individual can should consider themselves a feminist.

    *So if you are advertising for a new employee and the final choice is between a man and a woman, your decision should be based on their skills, not their gender.

    So there you have it. Feminism is not a man-hating ideology based around putting women ahead of men**, but simply the ideal that we should not be discriminated against because of our gender. Of course feminist theory is far more complicated than this, with as many viewpoints as feminists, but you won't find many who disagree with these as the basic tenets.

    **There is an extremist feminist element that do believe in such things, and they are the single most damaging thing to women's rights there is. Equality can not be replaced as a goal by revenge.

    Please keep any responses polite.

    Useful links:
    What is and is not Privilege
    What is male privilege?
    What is the Male Gaze?
    What about female privilege?
    35 PRACTICAL STEPS MEN CAN TAKE TO SUPPORT FEMINISM
    Last edited by eldargal; 02-16-2015 at 07:54 AM.
    Ask not the EldarGal a question, for she will give you three answers, all of which are puns and terrifying to know. Back off man, I'm a feminist. Ia! Ia! Gloppal Snode!

  2. #2

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    There was a 'debate' on Feminism on the 10 O'clock Show last night. Hosted by David Mitchell and panelled by three ladies.

    Worth looking up on 4OD.
    Fed up for Scalpers? https://www.facebook.com/groups/1710575492567307/?ref=bookmarks

  3. #3

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    Basically the question to ask is: do you believe that all people should be treated like people? And the answer should be yes, and that's why feminism is necessary. Just like all the struggles out there for full personhood!

    If your answer is no, then we need to talk.
    Social Justice Warlord Titan

  4. #4
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    yarr Cap'n.
    Twelve monkeys, eleven hats. One monkey is sad.

  5. #5

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    Because people think that this is funny: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22710744
    Fan of Fuggles | Derailment of the Wolfpack of Horsemen | In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'nSmurfs View Post
    Basically the question to ask is: do you believe that all people should be treated like people? And the answer should be yes, and that's why feminism is necessary. Just like all the struggles out there for full personhood!

    If your answer is no, then we need to talk.
    Exactly. People often ask 'why feminism, why not just equality' but the fact is for most of our history the female half of our species has been oppressed by the male half. We may still have persecution and discrimination against various groups in most countries, and that is bad, but it is almost universal that women have been treated at best like second class citizens and at worse like property with no will or mind of our own. That's why we have feminism and not just a generic call for equality.
    Ask not the EldarGal a question, for she will give you three answers, all of which are puns and terrifying to know. Back off man, I'm a feminist. Ia! Ia! Gloppal Snode!

  7. #7
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    Oh, EG, oppressed is such a harsh word. I probably won't stick with this for 100+ pages - and that ain't a crash course btw.

    But, I will comment on a few things as I took the time to read all the links provided (less the comments):

    I disagree with a comment on privilege: 'Its about fate dealing from the bottom of the deck on your behalf'. Possibly semantics but fate isn't a conscious entity with choice - so it can't do anything on your behalf.

    Also, from the primer on privilege, it states that according to its own definition, 'It's about advantages you have that you think are normal. It's about you being normal, and others being the deviation from normal.' But if thats the case, a lower working class Jeremy Kyle Chav from a sink estate, who thinks that is the norm, would be privileged, and consider David Cameron and the patrician class, as the deviation from the norm, with implications of being unprivileged.

    I actually learnt something interesting - the difference between sexual attraction and objectification. I think this is probably why men are reknowned for being able to disconnect emotions and sex - a bloke will put out because he fancies a shag just like scratching an itch. A women will more normally do this only if she is attracted to the whole package.

    I liked the picture of Vicki Vale's arse in the Batman comic.

    I also think I disagree that the opposite of 'male privilege' is not 'female privilege'. Apparently being a gentleman is actually bestowing 'chivlaric rewards' or some such lefty crap, and is a form of benevolent sexism. But actually if an individual like myself has been socialised into this belief system and it is a negative, then actually I fall into the category of un-privileged. Which is tosh.

    As to this testes:

    "There can't be productive conversation between a person who thinks they've gotten where they are on their own merits, and someone who knows that they would never have been given the opportunity to compete on the basis of their merits."

    It sounds over-defeatist to me. Also, in the same way it is better that 100 guilty men go free rather than 1 innocent man be convicted, it is better for 100 people never to have been given the opportunity to compete on the basis of their merits, than it is for 1 person to be allowed to compete on the basis of some positivie discrimination/affirmative action.


    Also, while I am on a roll, you might not have spotted this comment yesterday:

    Originally Posted by eldargal
    Women are kept from the front line because of an ingrained belief they have less right to defend their country than men and because men act like morons when they are around.


    I don't know where you got this 'ingrained belief'. Everyone in the military contributes to the fighting. The clerk in the admin office generates the pay that the infantry soldier won't fight without. The engineer banging spanners on the apache is as essential as the stick monkey in the front. Not letting women on the front line is about (in the uk mil) unit cohesion. Young fit men in combat bond closely. Near death does that, more closely perhaps than any other human experience. Add females to the mix - there will be shagging. Absolutely there will be. there already is mass shagging in the rear echelons of 'Ghanners (cos we don't have the ridiculous yank honour codes preventing consorting) Then there will be jealousy. Then Private Jones Male, boyfriend of Private Smith female, sees her take a sucking chest wound. Instead of closing with Tommy Taliban to bayonet him, he stops to try and aid her, instead of fighting through.

    If what I have described is men acting as morons, it is nature - we don't pay the shilling to our Private Soldiers to be rocket scientists...
    I'M RATHER DEFINATELY SURE FEMALE SPACE MARINES DEFINERTLEY DON'T EXIST.

  8. #8

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    You're looking at privilege too narrowly. Yes that white male chav is still privileged because he is a white male. The white male Cameron is also privileged for being white and male and has other privileges which the chav lacks. Mrs Cameron has privileges Mrs Chav lacks but because she is female she will face far more discrimination than Mr Cameron or the Chav. As you start going down the privilege ladder you see minorities, homosexuals, transfolk etc. who each face more discrimination than the ones above them.

    As to the fate comment, I agree the sentence is not a good one. What they mean is that privilege is about being born with certain passive benefits others lack. The most obvious is that as a white male no one will ever doubt your competence because of who you are. In contrast women, particularly attractive women, are often assumed to be stupid or incompetent simply because they are women. I experience this personally every day.

    it is better for 100 people never to have been given the opportunity to compete on the basis of their merits, than it is for 1 person to be allowed to compete on the basis of some positivie discrimination/affirmative action.
    It really isn't. Affirmative action helps break down psychological barriers that prevent people being judged on their merit and once that occurs it eventually becomes unnecessary. Without affirmative action the process still occurs but is much, much slower.

    The issue of females on the front lines is a complex one and I agree mixed gender units seem to be very problematic. Irecall reading a story about a US Marine unit that had massive morale failure after a boatload of female Marines hit a mine and were killed including a 'mother of the regiment' type figure.
    Ask not the EldarGal a question, for she will give you three answers, all of which are puns and terrifying to know. Back off man, I'm a feminist. Ia! Ia! Gloppal Snode!

  9. #9

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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22706896

    It could be worse. This could be how TV is run in this country....
    Autarch, Shas'o, Chaos Lord and Decadant Lord of the Webway. And a Doctor!
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  10. #10

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    That is horrific. I'm all for appreciating the beauty of the female form but WE ARE BOT HERE JUST TO BE LOOKED AT!
    "Women's bodies thirst for men's words!" he insists. "We have had so much bad reaction from aggressive feminists and I didn't see it coming... Sure I wanted to provoke a little bit, but it's not sexist."
    No, they ******* well do not. Our bodies are our bodies and if we want to display them fine but no one has a right to appraise us like meat. This show may be consensual but all it does is further the perception that women are here to be looked at and that is normal for men to judge our bodies like they own them.
    Ask not the EldarGal a question, for she will give you three answers, all of which are puns and terrifying to know. Back off man, I'm a feminist. Ia! Ia! Gloppal Snode!

 

 
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